Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[Indigenously Abled]

I almost question if they should remove normal... It kind of seems like the left out mode at least to me more seem to just skip to heroic raiding after mythic dungeons

Honestly, normal-mode pugs are worse than LFR. If it wasn't for Archy dropping stuff equivalent to lower heroic, it'd be worthless. The item level difference in the tier is so awful.

[Kyriani]

Why is meaningful content only what gives BiS in the entire game to you?

You actively advocate the destruction of your own content by making it trivial then try to chip away at raid.... just why?

Look at vanilla and tbc. They had proper progression. Do not ask that your none raid content gives you mythic raid gear. Ask that it gives you blues and greens that prepare you for the next stage of difficulty.

You keep actively asking for progression to be destroyed outside of raids so you can progress in raids but you don't raid nor want to... Can you really not see how that is bad idea?

Where did I say content had to be trivial? Why is raiding the only meaningful content? Those are you problems right there. Your locked ina tiny little box that cant see outside.

[Albimoo]

Where did I say content had to be trivial? Why is raiding the only meaningful content? Those are you problems right there. Your locked ina tiny little box that cant see outside.

Because right now it is the only meaningful content, but it doesnt HAVE to be. I truly do hope that blizzard comes up with something that is challenging and "meaningful" that the people advocating against raiding in this thread can bite into, I empathize because it wasnt there this expansion.

I have no idea what that content could be but I want nothing more than for Blizzard to wow us with something great for the people who dont want organized content they have to commit time to but raiding has really been the only meaningful content for some time.


(No longer directed at you) I'm also really surprised at the amount of people harping on gear in this thread. I really dont think I am (but i may be) in the minority but I really couldn't care less about gear and its power. I care about gear to the extent that it helps me kill the next boss. The end. If the rewards from mythic raiding were purely cosmetic that would be cool with me and most (at least most of the people I'm in contact with) raiders. Gear is such a minor issue on the spectrum but if one were to just read this threat it might as well be the entire problem.

People who like raiding like its competitiveness, I like pushing for those rankings (both in boss progression and parses) and for both of those gear is mostly negligible. Everyone will have the same gear (especially now when everyone is BiS anyway), having to do heroic to get geared up for it isnt something I particularly want to do either.

[primalmatter]

Where did I say content had to be trivial? Why is raiding the only meaningful content? Those are you problems right there. Your locked ina tiny little box that cant see outside.

Because if you drop crazy high gear for modes designed for forty plus item level less it will become trivial?

I don't get what is hard to follow here... the only content that actively scales with you is likely to be mythic + dungeons.

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Because right now it is the only meaningful content, but it doesnt HAVE to be. I truly do hope that blizzard comes up with something that is challenging and "meaningful" that the people advocating against raiding in this thread can bite into, I empathize because it wasnt there this expansion.

I have no idea what that content could be but I want nothing more than for Blizzard to wow us with something great for the people who dont want organized content they have to commit time to but raiding has really been the only meaningful content for some time.

Look at Burning crusade it looks like replacing greens with blues as you scratch out a dungeon set.

[Deleted]

Because right now it is the only meaningful content, but it doesnt HAVE to be. I truly do hope that blizzard comes up with something that is challenging and "meaningful" that the people advocating against raiding in this thread can bite into, I empathize because it wasnt there this expansion.

I have no idea what that content could be but I want nothing more than for Blizzard to wow us with something great for the people who dont want organized content they have to commit time to but raiding has really been the only meaningful content for some time.


(No longer directed at you) I'm also really surprised at the amount of people harping on gear in this thread. I really dont think I am (but i may be) in the minority but I really couldn't care less about gear and its power. I care about gear to the extent that it helps me kill the next boss. The end. If the rewards from mythic raiding were purely cosmetic that would be cool with me and most (at least most of the people I'm in contact with) raiders. Gear is such a minor issue on the spectrum but if one were to just read this threat it might as well be the entire problem.

People who like raiding like its competitiveness, I like pushing for those rankings (both in boss progression and parses) and for both of those gear is mostly negligible. Everyone will have the same gear (especially now when everyone is BiS anyway), having to do heroic to get geared up for it isnt something I particularly want to do either.

Mythic+ Dungeons will require better gear to handle higher levels. That keeps the progression going, making the game last longer. "Woot, I just got an upgrade, maybe we can push a level higher now". Progression like that has never been available outside of raids (Other than soloing random group content), and it is going to be amazing.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Because if you drop crazy high gear for modes designed for forty plus item level less it will become trivial?

I don't get what is hard to follow here... the only content that actively scales with you is likely to be mythic + dungeons.

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Look at Burning crusade it looks like replacing greens with blues as you scratch out a dungeon set.

World Content can drop currency for normal raid gear because the point of that gear is to be a cosmetic reward or for character progression

The Burning Crusade allowed you to get epics from reputation vendors, heroic dungeons, world drops, and you could even crafted epics also badge gear but that was added later.

[Kyriani]

Why? Why should people who put in little or no effort to defeat the most difficult challenges in the game have access to gear equivalent to those who do simply because they were patient and waited for it to drop out of some murloc's ass while farming herbs?

The problem with your argument is that you assume there can be no challenging non-raid content. I never said people shouldn't put in effort to get equivalent rewards. There can be challenging content that people can engage in solo or in small groups. It may not be as difficult as your "once a week get your loot" raid boss. Yes yes it doesn't rain loot from the entrance but if you can kill stuff you're getting loot every week. The solo/small group players can earn similar gear at a SIGNIFICANTLY SLOWER PACE without crushing your ego can't they? I mean that's exactly what they were able to do in: BC (tail end), WOTLK, CATA, and MOP and it seemed to work out pretty well then. So why is it such a horror to do the SAME THING THAT WORKED BEFORE BUT EVEN BETTER?

Even non-raiders can "earn" gear. Maybe not as fast as raiders do but they should have the opportunity. Why? Because giving players something to strive for keeps them engaged and playing and subbed. It doesn't have to be easy. It certainly CAN'T be as fast as raiders acquire gear but it CAN exist as an option because it already has existed before until the option was removed. Raiding does not have to be the only challenging content in the game... in fact it CAN'T be because we already saw how the raid or die mentality resulted in a mass exodus of subs. Without engaging and rewarding content outside of raids you won't retain a vast chunk of the subs. And sure you can say "fuck those people we don't need them" but Blizzard WANTS them. They WANT that money... and frankly so should you since it pays for the development of the raids you so enjoy. Without subs the game dies its that simple and alienating large swathes of your playerbase is just stupid.

Paragon... one of the worlds top raiding guilds... QUIT RAIDING. Think about that. Ask yourself WHY.

[Deleted]

Because if you drop crazy high gear for modes designed for forty plus item level less it will become trivial?

I don't get what is hard to follow here... the only content that actively scales with you is likely to be mythic + dungeons.

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Look at Burning crusade it looks like replacing greens with blues as you scratch out a dungeon set.

But having shit gear just makes an artificial barrier. Which is exactly why mythic+ dungeons will scale rewards all the way up to mythic raid lvl gear. That way you can slowly but surely progress for a long time, hopefully enough time for a new major content patch to come out. Especially since skills and strategy will play a huge role as well.

[Albimoo]

Mythic+ Dungeons will require better gear to handle higher levels. That keeps the progression going, making the game last longer. "Woot, I just got an upgrade, maybe we can push a level higher now". Progression like that has never been available outside of raids (Other than soloing random group content), and it is going to be amazing.

Agreed, I think its a great feature and sounds incredibly fun. Hopefully it will fill the niche that is frustrating so many people we've seen here.

[Tomana]

honestly, I think you should be able to craft all slots up to normal raid level and that is it. anything above that should be earned from raid. however if crafted items of heroic or better level are allowed then there should not be an artificial limit of three equiped items because honestly there are enough players that you could gear them out in complete mythic gear and they would still wipe on normal.

I agree on the limitation part, which is why it's nice it's removed in Legion.

[Deleted]

The problem with your argument is that you assume there can be no challenging non-raid content. I never said people shouldn't put in effort to get equivalent rewards. There can be challenging content that people can engage in solo or in small groups. It may not be as difficult as your "once a week get your loot" raid boss. Yes yes it doesn't rain loot from the entrance but if you can kill stuff you're getting loot every week. The solo/small group players can earn similar gear at a SIGNIFICANTLY SLOWER PACE without crushing your ego can't they? I mean that's exactly what they were able to do in: BC (tail end), WOTLK, CATA, and MOP and it seemed to work out pretty well then. So why is it such a horror to do the SAME THING THAT WORKED BEFORE BUT EVEN BETTER?

Even non-raiders can "earn" gear. Maybe not as fast as raiders do but they should have the opportunity. Why? Because giving players something to strive for keeps them engaged and playing and subbed. It doesn't have to be easy. It certainly CAN'T be as fast as raiders acquire gear but it CAN exist as an option because it already has existed before until the option was removed. Raiding does not have to be the only challenging content in the game... in fact it CAN'T be because we already saw how the raid or die mentality resulted in a mass exodus of subs. Without engaging and rewarding content outside of raids you won't retain a vast chunk of the subs. And sure you can say "fuck those people we don't need them" but Blizzard WANTS them. They WANT that money... and frankly so should you since it pays for the development of the raids you so enjoy. Without subs the game dies its that simple and alienating large swathes of your playerbase is just stupid.

Paragon... one of the worlds top raiding guilds... STOPPED RAIDING. Think about that.

Exactly this. Making a game with only one type of compelling (Edit: difficult) gameplay (Raids) with a huge logistical challenge outside the game (Getting the raid together), is a bad idea. Especially when it has a one week lockout. Give players viable options, and see how the game will thrive with that. Mythic+ Dungeons is a huge step in the right direction, and I honestly just want something similar for solo play now. If they add that, I would always have something to do. Solo "grinding" if I feel like that, group "grinding" if friends are online, and people who want to raid can continue doing that.

[judgementofantonidas]

The problem with your argument is that you assume there can be no challenging non-raid content. I never said people shouldn't put in effort to get equivalent rewards. There can be challenging content that people can engage in solo or in small groups. It may not be as difficult as your "once a week get your loot" raid boss. Yes yes it doesn't rain loot from the entrance but if you can kill stuff you're getting loot every week.

Paragon... one of the worlds top raiding guilds... QUIT RAIDING. Think about that. Ask yourself WHY.

you are completely wrong. you can go literally months without getting a drop.

Paragon quit raiding because it became too difficult to remain bigoted against anyone who was not finish and maintain the size roster required.

[Blayze]

interesting. my casual raid guild thrived during cataclysm like it has at no other time since wow's inception.

And mine died a slow and painful death after a tier and a half of being told to go fuck ourselves. We had bugger all world content--there were more Baradin's Wardens dailies at launch than there were dailies for every other Cata faction combined--dungeons were an absolute nightmare as not only were they all overtuned, but we were ALSO expected to run only ZG and ZA once they were released, and we were actively punished for earning our Valour in the 'wrong' order each week.

If your casual guild thrived during Cataclysm, then the only answer is that you were NOT a casual guild.
Either that or you enjoyed hating yourselves.

[judgementofantonidas]

I agree on the limitation part, which is why it's nice it's removed in Legion.

not really removed. just bumped up to legendary items.

[Alydael]

I would argue casualization is the only reason that WOW is still as successful as it is. Just ask WS how catering to the "hardcore" worked out. You don't make a billion dollars in a year by catering to the handful of people that take video games super seriously.

[Tomana]

not really removed. just bumped up to legendary items.

Sure, but those are not crafted. I don't know what the crafted items' upgrade mechanic will be in detail (besides the fact you destroy crafted items to get an ingredient to upgrade other crafted items).

[judgementofantonidas]

And mine died a slow and painful death after a tier and a half of being told to go fuck ourselves. We had bugger all world content--there were more Baradin's Wardens dailies at launch than there were dailies for every other Cata faction combined--dungeons were an absolute nightmare as not only were they all overtuned, but we were ALSO expected to run only ZG and ZA once they were released, and we were actively punished for earning our Valour in the 'wrong' order each week.

If your casual guild thrived during Cataclysm, then the only answer is that you were NOT a casual guild.
Either that or you enjoyed hating yourselves.

who or what exactly was telling you to go fuck yourselves? even a half competant guild master should have been able to hold a guild together in cataclysm with all the guild perks alone.

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Sure, but those are not crafted. I don't know what the crafted items' upgrade mechanic will be in detail (besides the fact you destroy crafted items to get an ingredient to upgrade other crafted items).

cant help you. I only leveled what will be my main in alpha and he does not carry gathering professions so didn't work on professions at all. as for beta can't even spec my character out without getting dc.

[primalmatter]

World Content can drop currency for normal raid gear because the point of that gear is to be a cosmetic reward or for character progression

The Burning Crusade allowed you to get epics from reputation vendors, heroic dungeons, world drops, and you could even crafted epics also badge gear but that was added later.

It was to a very limited extent... The best rep reward for casters was a blue staff after all. I would caution adding more then one or two pieces like that rather then how saturated they have become.

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Exactly this. Making a game with only one type of compelling (Edit: difficult) gameplay (Raids) with a huge logistical challenge outside the game (Getting the raid together), is a bad idea. Especially when it has a one week lockout. Give players viable options, and see how the game will thrive with that. Mythic+ Dungeons is a huge step in the right direction, and I honestly just want something similar for solo play now. If they add that, I would always have something to do. Solo "grinding" if I feel like that, group "grinding" if friends are online, and people who want to raid can continue doing that.

This has never been the case... Even WoD had Challenge modes that for a time rewarded good gear on a daily reward. Casuals will decry anything with a bit of challenge as to hard core and flee it.

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I would argue casualization is the only reason that WOW is still as successful as it is. Just ask WS how catering to the "hardcore" worked out. You don't make a billion dollars in a year by catering to the handful of people that take video games super seriously.

Play wild star.

No really its free go play it stop paraphrasing the ign review and try it. I always chuckle when people call wild star hard. Its like calling super hexagon a shooter.

[Deleted]

Exactly this. Making a game with only one type of compelling (Edit: difficult) gameplay (Raids) with a huge logistical challenge outside the game (Getting the raid together), is a bad idea. Especially when it has a one week lockout. Give players viable options, and see how the game will thrive with that. Mythic+ Dungeons is a huge step in the right direction, and I honestly just want something similar for solo play now. If they add that, I would always have something to do. Solo "grinding" if I feel like that, group "grinding" if friends are online, and people who want to raid can continue doing that.

Mythic+ dungeons doesnt solve anything. You will get sick very soon doing same 10 dungones over and over for loot so you can just again increase difficulty and do them over and over again. Diablo 3 proved that this concept is horrible for player retantion. When new season starts people go and play and after 2 weeks they just leave even when they dont have bis gear for their spec they jsut dont want bother witht it. They log in saw new stuff then leave becouse youa re left with nothing then gear grind and reaplying same content over and over. Blizzard should focus on content longetivity then replayability. Why it takes me few days to finish entire game then i am left with nothing then reaplying same *** all over again? Why it cant take me months to see first raid, or dungeon, or make that sweet epic from crafting. Why is everything so quick in this game.

[OreoLover]

How exactly is it multiplied relentlessly? Do raiders some how not replace all their end game gear with greens and blues when they start the next expansion?

Is the 15 minute 5 person dungeon that can be easily soloed by tanks and some dps by the end of every expansion the hard work you are referring to?

First of all, you should work on your comprehension. I won't further suffer your opinions and poor comprehension, thankfully.

Colloquially-justifiable word choice aside, it is relentless throughout an expansion, obviously. That's not a big problem by itself, but it is by the extent of the scaling compared to unchanging (but still primary for many) content, such as dungeons and PVP.

I have already addressed there, implicitly, and multiple posts explicitly that I want the content to be more challenging "hard work" for everyone. I do not want it to be child's play for raiders, especially in terms of ruining others' experiences.