Why so much hate for Sylvanas?

[Exilian]

*raises hand* Me, I hate Sylvanas! >.>

Seriously though, I used to like her until ... I believe it was around Cata I started hating her, I always found her people fishy with creating a plague all the damned time. Then they use it after being told NOT too, during a genocide that should never have taken place. >.> Now she goes around raising the dead willy-nilly because her people can't reproduce.

Well, she hasn't really been one of the good guys since Arthas destroyed everything she loved and turned into a banshee. Slowly, though, she found something to care for, first it was Vereesa, now it's the Forsaken. Perhaps she unnecessarily attacked the Worgen, but hey, all is fair in love and war.

[Dartz1979]

Oh hey you figured it out

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didn't you say you loved Garona like 2 days ago?

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Koltira was a ally no longer, he committed treason and got Forsaken soldiers and a Val'kyr killed because of sentiment.



This point is beyond stupid, I won't bother to explain it other than you have warlocks and mages, you can't talk.




said sister who wanted to rule the Forsaken and listen to no one, neither Alliance or Horde.



funny because so does Varian, I guess this means he is a terrible commander too.



you mean the guy that was throwing non humans to the axe? The guy that only had the rank because every other person in the chain of command was dead?



She didn't use mind control to win Lordaeron, I would tell you to play the game and realize you are wrong, but We both know you wouldn't admit it and would rather cry Wolf Mindcontrol



Because Garrosh spent so much time killing Forsaken that the Gileans had time to bunker in, not to mention that they all practically became super soldiers.


Hurray another falsehood from you! what a habbit! Garrosh didn't like the plague because it reduced Forsaken casualties, and he didn't trust them. It had nothing to do with it being Cruel. He had no problem with them using the blight the Horde approved however.



And by more successful do you mean in your own little headcanon?


Boy howdy you sure do love lying.



I'd say learn your lore, but the fact that every time you post its the same incorrect shit I know you don't learn your lesson. Either way here is a link for you that I doubt you would read.
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Dar%27Khan_Drathir

I like garona in the warcraft movie yeah. but in game i have super crushes on sylvanas and jaina.

[Deleted]

She's a cunt.

Thats why.

[Deleted]

Because she's Undead.
And people associate that with zombies.
And zombies are evil in nearly all media.

It always makes me think of this image from Discworld:

wait wait, is it not just BECAUSE she is an undead, no one hated her before cata. But excuse me for not enoung the Lich Queen aka bitch eddition. She used the fucking plague on everyone and everything, murder civilians like even the orcs dont do, and THEN she Resses them to fight Her war.

She is no better then the lick king, Hell it was hinted at he was holding back the Endless tides of the undeads, so she may be worse.

[Friendlyimmolation]

wait wait, is it not just BECAUSE she is an undead, no one hated her before cata. But excuse me for not enoung the Lich Queen aka bitch eddition. She used the fucking plague on everyone and everything, murder civilians like even the orcs dont do, and THEN she Resses them to fight Her war.

She is no better then the lick king, Hell it was hinted at he was holding back the Endless tides of the undeads, so she may be worse.

The plauge is literally a nicer weapon than most player abilities, murder civilians? Garrosh did that a ton more, even though he discouraged it.



No one is forced to join the forsaken



And the lich king didn't hold the scourge back out of Benevolence, he explains why when you fight him

[Deleted]

Bullshit.

Only if you ignore the part where she isn't going to kill everyone and raise them into mind-controlled slaves.
And.. oh yeah.. "There must always be a Lich King to control the endless tides of undead" is nothing but Alliance plot armour.

Murdering civilians?
I am not sure living in a military base in hostile territory still qualifies as a civilian.
Don't want to get rekt? Don't go living in enemy territory to support a war against them.

call it " Alliance plot armour." still lore, so that is what we can go with. And she is though useing the Plague where she can, she desemated Southshore and was just happy to use it vs Gilneas(considering that was the last time Forsaken got any relevant story that is a pretty big relevant factor)

And Murdering civilians, she did though Civilians in southshore, which is not in a military base hostisle territory, They where just farmers living there. They where there even before there was Any forsaken.

[Zulkhan]

And.. oh yeah.. "There must always be a Lich King to control the endless tides of undead" is nothing but Alliance plot armour.

Wait, how's that "Alliance" plot armour?

[Melsiren]

Wait, how's that "Alliance" plot armour?

I think he's going off the theory that if there was no Lich King that many undead would get their free will back, just like when Sylvanas broke free. A lot of people I hear talk about that theory automatically assume all those free willed undead would join the Forsaken, so Blizzard making them all just mindless rampaging undead is seen as plot armor in that theory.

I -think- that is what he was going for.


But hey! I'm sure Kang will be back to explain himself sooner than later, and my assumption was probably way off.

[Golden Yak]

Because she's Undead.
And people associate that with zombies.
And zombies are evil in nearly all media.

It always makes me think of this image from Discworld:

Everyone's just being a bunch of vitalists.

[Zulkhan]

I think he's going off the theory that if there was no Lich King that many undead would get their free will back, just like when Sylvanas broke free. A lot of people I hear talk about that theory automatically assume all those free willed undead would join the Forsaken, so Blizzard making them all just mindless rampaging undead is seen as plot armor in that theory.

I -think- that is what he was going for.


But hey! I'm sure Kang will be back to explain himself sooner than later, and my assumption was probably way off.

Yeah, that's exactly what I feared and you're probably right.

Personally, I think would have been too much of a stretch that something more than a minority successfully regained their senses back, considered how they got those senses and freedom back from an utterly mindless and enthralled state. It kinda makes sense that the vast majority of this endless army would simply go feral and utterly berserk instead of actually getting their cognitive faculties back, considered their damaged and rotted state.

[Zulkhan]

Undead that break away from the Scourge become Forsaken.

Not really. Forsaken broke by themselves as they exploited the waning power of the Lich King. Sylvanas is the most blatant example. But freeing all of a sudden an entire army of undead? No, there's really no guarantee everyone is going to regain their senses instead of turning into a feral beast, in fact the vast majority of them would probably go bonkers.

Undead are supposed to be damaged, rotted carcasses. Managing to regain the entirety of your cognitive faculties in that state should be a relative rarity rather than a standard. Heck, even with recent Undead raised by the Val'kyrs you see that not everyone embrace undeath in a decent state of mind.

And Forsaken are supposed to be nearly unkillable, yet to protect the Alliance they die as easy as humans.

They're not really unkillable, they're just harder to kill because lethal wounds don't work on them as they do with most races. This doesn't mean they're effectively resilient, in fact their physical forms aren't exactly the best, they're little more than bones and rotted flesh.

[Kavoo]

Some people just hate her because shes a female powerful character.

haters gonna hate

[Zulkhan]

Yet most did join her.
There's no good reason as to why a big part of the Scourge wouldn't join her once they gain their senses.
So they wrote in this story to keep them weaker.

Except that's the point. Not everyone would regain those senses. The Forsaken managed to break the Lich King's control because they were clearly those who desired that the most, had the willpower to do that or (generally) had their brains in a much more decent state than most undead. After all, we saw plenty of Undead in this game who aren't controlled by anything and yet they're aggressive, feral and mindlessly resentful against all the living. Those who would have remained mindless didn't manage to follow the Forsaken's path to begin with. And if we want to speculate a bit, is very likely that half of the undead in Lordaeron exploited this chance due to their personal resentment and hunger for freedom and vengeance, what gave them the strength to get free in the first place. Again, Sylvanas is the obvious example. She freed herself because she was burning with hatred and determined to claim her vengeance on Arthas.

Freeing every undead by the Lich King's control all of a sudden, without any required effort and given the recent Chronicle clarifications about the usual nature of the undead would have just caused an apocalypse, since the number of undead who would have gone bonkers would have immensely surpassed those few who would have successfully managed to become Forsaken-like undead.

About the Val'kyrs, we don't know which is the successful ratio. We know Forsaken raises a lot of corpses daily, we have no idea how many bear successful results. It's very probable the Forsaken increased numbers are relatively few compared to the total amount of people raised. After all, in the Tirisfal starting area you have 1 successful undead turned into Forsaken, the second went rogue and the third went bonkers. If we follow this pattern, the suggestion is that only 1/3 of the raised undead effectively become Forsaken.

No, they are not unkillable.
But you just admitted that lethal wounds don't work on them as they do on other races.
That would make stuff like archers kind of useless against the Forsaken, and there are many other weapons which are useless.
There's honestly no chance for the Alliance (except of course for the fact that they are protected by plot armour).

They're hard to kill but they can still be incapacitated in some way. As undead you clearly need to destroy them completely or cut their head off to effectively kill them, lethal wounds don't work because they don't rely on their organs to "live" to begin with, which is an awesome advantage, however the drawback is that their physical forms are remarkably weak and vulnerable. As I said, they're basically bones and rotted flesh, they're walking carcasses. It's thanks to necromancy if they can move at all.

The Forsaken's strength relies on the way they don't tire and exhaust and how hard to kill they are, but they clearly lack pure offensive value, they can only exhaust and stress the opponent until they get the upper hand. However, this can be a risky approach and that's why the blight comes in hand, it occasionaly grants to the Forsaken the firepower they desperately need to quickly turn the tide of a conflict.

[vilememory]

Isn't the majority of the Scourge mindless undead? I mean the vast majority, Arthas Lich King wasn't too into things with free will that could betray him. Game wise you had Icecrown valley full of dead but their were pockets of open space. Lore wise it was jam packed like a mosh pit. So when they say without the Lich King controlling the Scourge, the mindless ones, they would just go hog wild attacking everything. And Eastern Kingdoms have lots of places where lots of mindless undead Scourge roam about. So... where was I going with this? Damn it. So it wouldn't just be Alliance that would get fucked over by mindless Scourge but also Horde. Eventually you are going to get boats full of refuges and Scourge coming to the Kalimdor Shores.

[Zulkhan]

I know the lore explanation.
Plot armour is when the developers make up explanations to protect a certain subject.

Then we could find excuses like this for everything. That's dumb. The way undead works goes far beyond the Forsaken/Alliance confrontation.

Following this route, we could say is a very convenient development to begin with that mindless undead magically regained their cognitive faculties simply by gaining freedom from the Lich King's control, as they could have been "free" and yet remain mindless. But Blizzard wanted the whole Forsaken faction to be a thing and so they made that happen. We're just supposed to accept that things went that way. The same applies about the way undead works in general and why they need to be kept in check.

[Bosen]

Sylvanas went from understandable in her struggles to making decisions that I no longer respect. She's become more of a villain.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Too bad is not very clear how much people get that. Be it Varian, Sylvanas, Anduin, Jaina, Vol'jin and who knows how many more, you have people hating on all of these characters like they are real persons, judging them by standards that are absolutely ridiculous within the lore.

All these people definitely needs a breath of fresh air.

For reals. Ever take a step back, take a second look at some of these threads and think "How are people so worked up over a video game?"???

[Antermosiph]

Man, people are taking this way to seriously. As the guy above said I dislike sylvanas because her struggles went from understandable to borderline villainous and evil. Although she could still potentially redeem herself I doubt it'd be anytime soon. Her only goal is survival, nothing more. I mean look at what she did to Koltira just because he showed a measure of honor.

Although I don't think she's a current threat. She's one hell of a liability to azeroth as a whole and when it isn't being assaulted by practically everything ever she'll have to be dealt with. Beyond her though the horde is honestly all pretty chill people. I personally feel like she's the only link causing the remaining strife between alliance/horde.

[Lex Icon]

does it matter if she is a villain? i mean there's plenty of those that people like so why not her?

[Frozen Death Knight]

She became irredeemable after WotLK when she finally got her revenge on the Lich King, which actually was a well motivated and understandable character arc for her. What does she do with her new found freedom once she no longer needs to hunt the person who ruined her life? Well, she does pretty much the same thing as the guy she hated the most, of course. Does not matter that she gives her newly recruited Undead Forsaken the "freedom" to join her ranks, because the implications of her actions are extremely hypocritical, especially since she has outright stated: "What are we but slaves to this torment?". So basically, by her own logic she is creating slaves, and there is no way to spin it any other way.

She is more than likely damning people's souls to possibly face the same fate she will face when she committed suicide and you are supposed to find this character likeable? Maybe as a villain she could be, but she is certainly not the anti-hero she original was portrayed as.