Bastion is just anti-fun -.-

[Endus]

It's all still numbers. Runspeed is a number, range is a number, falloff/spread/reload/RoF/etc are represented by numbers. So on and so forth. Learning and exploiting those numbers is a part of getting better.

I know there are numbers at some level, but again, it's pretty much impossible to quantify things like popping out of cover to fire, for characters like Hanzo or Widowmaker, or the numerical advantage of catching someone unawares by flanking, or so forth.

[Museigen]

Pretty sure I didn't say "high amount of usage".

In fact, pretty sure that I specifically said it was NOT nearly as high as the top picks.

It was meant in satire, as non zero for bastion is high :P

But I'll take that as a no then.

[Tenris]

I've rarely felt the need to actually change hero to counter him.. but then again I'm quite often stuck in tank/support role. "Mainly" playing Reinhardt can make Bastions life quite annoying when I'm ~100% of the time grouped up with my brother, so he can take out Bastion while I keep shield up.

As for increasing spread on longer ranges, I'd be OK with it as I rarely even try to snipe with him.. if enemy team has Widowmaker.. and they almost always do.., then it's not even ideal to sit in such spots.

It's quite funny how rarely people check upstairs/air while playing. Was defending Hanamura, last control point, as Bastion.. whole enemy team rolled on the point while I kept firing from upstairs/loft.. only one of them figured me out, but too late and I survived with 10 health.

Very true its pretty rare you dont have someone who cant deal with Bastion on the team. I main Genji so I make it my job to find the bastions and watch them die. Bastion is probably the best ambusher in the game due to his hogh damage, if you can sneak behind the enemy or attack from an unusual place you can wipe most of the team, thats why hes so strong and people are calling for a nerf but any character is strong if they ambush you from behind.

[Deleted]

I know there are numbers at some level, but again, it's pretty much impossible to quantify things like popping out of cover to fire, for characters like Hanzo or Widowmaker, or the numerical advantage of catching someone unawares by flanking, or so forth.

These are all things that are totally unimportant for soldier... on top of it, Soldier is the weakest offensive and overall a very weak hero when it comes down to that.
His weapon loadout is all about sustain and DPS, yet his DPS is abysmall and he can't even outdamage a Lucio or a Lucio heal unless you have close to 100% Accuracy, which you can't have because his bullet spread is horrible after ~10 bullets.
He's weak when it comes down to burst too due to his long cooldowns and his healing ability is defensive by nature, because it's a zone and his mobility is both weak and doesn't involve animation cancel.

Soldier bread and butter IS his pulse rifle... and it's just sad that it's weapon damage is so low compared to all the other heroes.
There is absolutely no reason for a "DPS" hero in Overwatch, yet Soldier's loadout is made for DPS.

[IxilaFA]

Well yes, but it's still a numbers game on the backend once you hash it all out. McCree isn't popular because of his rugged good looks, but because that gun has a very large damage number attached to it in the database.

You're pretty pedantic, aren't you?

Of course there's numbers beneath everything, but you can't look at one hero doing as much damage per hit as another and say it's ridiculous. You have to look at the whole toolkit. For one, Bastion has no mobility while Soldier 76 can run out of trouble pretty quickly. Two, the guy tries to discount the Helix rockets when the Helix rockets are huge part of Soldier 76's toolkit. Three, Soldier 76 can heal while moving and firing, something Bastion can't do.

So if you want to boil the game to raw numbers, a lot of heroes will come up short because you can't compare "Helix rockets on 8 second cooldown" to the damage somebody puts out with a well-placed automatic weapons hit.

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These are all things that are totally unimportant... on top of it, Soldier is the weakest offensive and overall a very weak hero when it comes down to that.
His weapon loadout is all about sustain and DPS, yet his DPS is abysmall and he can't even outdamage a Lucio unless you have close to 100% Accuracy, which you can't have because his bullet spread is horrible after ~10 bullets.
He's weak when it comes down to burst and his healing ability is defensive by nature because it's a zone and his mobility is both weak and doesn't involve animation cancel.

You clearly haven't played with any good Soldiers. For one, his damage output can be insane so long as he is played correctly. Secondly, his spread is a non-factor if you know how to play him; three-burst shots and you have zero spread. His mobility, while not constant, allows him to get out of trouble quickly and easily, while his healing can be used offensively and defensively (and if you've never seen a Soldier who uses healing while on the attack then I reiterate my point about not playing with any good Soldiers). He is not supposed to be a good 1v1 character, he is a good support offensive character who works best when behind a Reinhardt or a Roadhog.

[Vurdah]

A good half or more of the characters can counter Bastion. People just need to stop being bad.

Granted the game is still new (not even released yet) so people are still figuring out counters.

[MrHappy]

junkrat says hello...hanzo says hello, widowmaker says hello, reaper says hello, genji says hello as hard counter.
Rienhart/ Roadhog as soft counters.

[Deggan]

I hate to be that guy, but anyone says that basion is overpowered is simply bad at the game.

A single person can counter him without needing the help of their team. Any of the offensive characters can kill him within a clip. The snipers can kill him with 3 shots max. Some of the defensive characters can destroy him without little effort... All you have to do is play intelligently, he cant move when he is turreted up, so be smart about it.

[Endus]

These are all things that are totally unimportant for soldier... on top of it, Soldier is the weakest offensive and overall a very weak hero when it comes down to that.
His weapon loadout is all about sustain and DPS, yet his DPS is abysmall and he can't even outdamage a Lucio or a Lucio heal unless you have close to 100%

Of course he doesn't out-heal Lucio; Lucio is a support hero.

As for "not outdamaging Lucio", that's just wrong. In close-mid range, Soldier 76 does about the same damage per bullet as Lucio, with about 2.5x the rate of fire, without any travel time for his bullets, meaning much higher accuracy. At long range, well, see bullet travel time; if you're getting hit by Lucio at long range, it's because you're standing in one spot, or you're running into his bullets.

Accuracy, which you can't have because his bullet spread is horrible after ~10 bullets.

Burst. Fire.

You know, something that's been SOP in shooters for nearly 20 years.

He's weak when it comes down to burst too due to his long cooldowns and his healing ability is defensive by nature, because it's a zone and his mobility is both weak and doesn't involve animation cancel.

Healing is always "defensive by nature". Because it's healing.
And his cooldowns aren't really longer than other heroes'.

He's built as a harasser, and someone who provides sustained pressure. He does a great job in that role. If you're playing him as a sneaky assassin, you should've picked McCree or Reaper or Genji.

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Like Endus asking how we quantify someone peeking out of cover to shoot. Well, for the most part, we all actually know the answer to this intuitively, even if we don't think about the math. The person with a low RoF peeking out to fire is effectively lowering the RoF of everyone aiming at them to match their own slow RoF. It's why you don't stand there in the open holding LMB down as Pharah if you're trying to dislodge a Bastion who knows you're there.

And once we do that, your "450 dps" claim goes out the window, and the situation favors other heroes.

That's the point.

[Deleted]

It's amazing that this is still going... I'm wondering how much more can be said about:
- not standing in front of deployed Bastion
- it's impossible to NOT know where Bastion is deployed since maps are designed in such way there is VERY limited number of spots where he can deploy and have ANY impact on the game. After playing every map you should know where Bastion is 100% of the time
- enemy has a Bastion? Take assassin. Then kill him. Then kill him again and again and again... You can kill him as many times as you want as any of the assassins. Maps are designed in a way he is never 100% safe...
- you have to incredibly stupid or very distracted to die to Bastion (have to admit, died few times to him cause I was explaining my co-worker how to properly connect to SOAP services using C# on the phone)

Bastion is a typical noob-mawer. Every game that features any kind of classes/heroes have one of those archetypes. It's actual design tool to make people to learn their mistakes (like spikes or moving isles in platformer games). The moment you are being killed by Bastion should make you understand why he was able to kill you - if that is not happening then there is no future for the mankind.

[Deleted]

You're pretty pedantic, aren't you?

Of course there's numbers beneath everything, but you can't look at one hero doing as much damage per hit as another and say it's ridiculous. You have to look at the whole toolkit. For one, Bastion has no mobility while Soldier 76 can run out of trouble pretty quickly. Two, the guy tries to discount the Helix rockets when the Helix rockets are huge part of Soldier 76's toolkit. Three, Soldier 76 can heal while moving and firing, something Bastion can't do.

So if you want to boil the game to raw numbers, a lot of heroes will come up short because you can't compare "Helix rockets on 8 second cooldown" to the damage somebody puts out with a well-placed automatic weapons hit.

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You clearly haven't played with any good Soldiers. For one, his damage output can be insane so long as he is played correctly. Secondly, his spread is a non-factor if you know how to play him; three-burst shots and you have zero spread. His mobility, while not constant, allows him to get out of trouble quickly and easily, while his healing can be used offensively and defensively (and if you've never seen a Soldier who uses healing while on the attack then I reiterate my point about not playing with any good Soldiers). He is not supposed to be a good 1v1 character, he is a good support offensive character who works best when behind a Reinhardt or a Roadhog.

I know what he can do and I know how you play him, doesn't change the fact that other heroes do his role better.
McCree has twice as much burst as him, is more accurate and does more (100% accuracte, undodgeable) damage at range and his overall DPS is better too.

while his healing can be used offensively and defensively (and if you've never seen a Soldier who uses healing while on the attack then I reiterate my point about not playing with any good Soldiers).

His healing field is a very small area on a very high cooldown. If you see a soldier using it, you just wait 4 seconds. He won't advance... the only way you can make "use" of it (that isn't about winning a stupid 1on1 fight) is when you set it onto the payload.

[DeadmanWalking]

I watched Seagull on his stream absolutely tear up a team as bastion but I can tell you that he spent about 5% of his time in turret mode. He only died twice and each time his pro-team's mercy rezed him which shows how rarely he died but that is more a testament to seagull than bastion as he tore entire teams up regardless which character he played. He also did some tricks I am not going to share as I don't want people using it on me.
What he didn't do was camp in turret mode, he was constantly moving and his ult was constantly charging meaning more ults and the enemy could not communicate where he was camping to easily take him out. Morale to the story: Noob bastions camp in turret mode and if you can't take advantage of that weakness then you are a bigger noob than the camping Bastion.

[Deleted]

Very true its pretty rare you dont have someone who cant deal with Bastion on the team. I main Genji so I make it my job to find the bastions and watch them die. Bastion is probably the best ambusher in the game due to his hogh damage, if you can sneak behind the enemy or attack from an unusual place you can wipe most of the team, thats why hes so strong and people are calling for a nerf but any character is strong if they ambush you from behind.

A good team won't allow you to flank their bastion, the DPS of the champion is high enough to allow for a "protect the bastion" strategy. And with a coordinated team you can easily annihilate most of the other team like that.

Also, you don't need to stay in one place for a long time as a bastion due to his very high DPS output. The whole point is to set up unhindered on a strategic point (with your team support), to tear appart the other team and then to push forward.

[Anzaman]

But, but...Bastion can't move!

Even enemy knockbacks are unable to move Bastion, d'oh.

[Endus]

I know what he can do and I know how you play him, doesn't change the fact that other heroes do his role better.
McCree has twice as much burst as him, is more accurate and does more (100% accuracte, undodgeable) damage at range and his overall DPS is better too.

See, this is the kind of stuff I mean.

Soldier 76's damage is just as undodgeable, he has better mobility and sustain than McCree (read: any), and he has better mid-range. He's also less unforgiving if you miss a shot for whatever reason. McCree's fan is a strong bit of burst, but you're not hitting with it outside of close range, whereas helix rockets shine at range.

They're entirely different heroes, with different strengths.

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I like how you'll disagree, disagree, disagree...then once we come full circle you'll act like, "Yeah, that's the point, dummy!"

My point was never "numbers don't matter", it was "you can't just argue based on max DPS under optimal conditions and assuming the enemy just stands there and lets you shoot them".

[Deleted]

Of course he doesn't out-heal Lucio; Lucio is a support hero.

As for "not outdamaging Lucio", that's just wrong. In close-mid range, Soldier 76 does about the same damage per bullet as Lucio, with about 2.5x the rate of fire, without any travel time for his bullets, meaning much higher accuracy. At long range, well, see bullet travel time; if you're getting hit by Lucio at long range, it's because you're standing in one spot, or you're running into his bullets.

You didn't have to take me word for word for this... what I'm saying is that his DPS is comparable to any other hero in the game. Even supports.

Burst. Fire.

You know, something that's been SOP in shooters for nearly 20 years.

This is so stupid... you are lowering his already low DPS and he doesn't have any kind of burst aside of his Helix, which need to connect... if they don't connect, they aren't stronger than a single McCree bullet.
Mcree can do ~800 dmg in 2,5 seconds (every 6 seconds)... Soldier can do like...350 in that amount of time (helix direct hit included, no headshots, every 8 seconds)

Healing is always "defensive by nature". Because it's healing.
And his cooldowns aren't really longer than other heroes'.

No.. and no his 15s CD on heal is one of, if not *the* highest cooldown in the game and also the easiest to counter and most difficult to utilize on the offensive.

He's built as a harasser, and someone who provides sustained pressure. He does a great job in that role. If you're playing him as a sneaky assassin, you should've picked McCree or Reaper or Genji.

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He is the weakest harrasser there is due to his low burst.

[DeadmanWalking]

A good team won't allow you to flank their bastion, the DPS of the champion is high enough to allow for a "protect the bastion" strategy. And with a coordinated team you can easily annihilate most of the other team like that.

Also, you don't need to stay in one place for a long time as a bastion due to his very high DPS output. The whole point is to set up unhindered on a strategic point (with your team support), to tear appart the other team and then to push forward.

Yes, you are 100% correct, a co-ordinated team can protect their bastion indefinitely, but you forgot the tiny insignificant detail that this is only possible against an in Uncoordinated team. A coordinated team can and will pull those defenses down.

[IxilaFA]

I know what he can do and I know how you play him, doesn't change the fact that other heroes do his role better.
McCree has twice as much burst as him, is more accurate and does more (100% accuracte, undodgeable) damage at range and his overall DPS is better too.

See, I think you're confused about what his "role" is. He isn't a 1v1 assassin or the type that should be sneaking around taking shots at the enemy. When you compare him to McCree, that's what you're doing. Soldier 76 works best on the point in tandem with a tank and a healer. About half my games in Beta were with Soldier 76, and I almost always had gold Objective Time and Objective Kills. We also won a vast majority of those games. That's his role, to be a suppressor, to keep the enemies from advancing easily, and to pick off low health targets.

McCree most definitely does not have better accuracy and his weapon doesn't do all that much damage from range. He has to get up close and personal for two of his big abilities to be useful, and he has almost zero mobility. Furthermore since you're still arguing the point that Soldier 76 is inaccurate, it tells me you really don't know how he's supposed to be played. Burst fire and your accuracy will shoot up dramatically. You're not supposed to spam left mouse button as a Soldier 76.

As for "Overall DPS" that's not a thing in Overwatch. McCree might do more damage if he's face-to-face with a Soldier 76, bu that's negated by rockets, heals, and Soldier's ability to sprint out of range before McCree can even respond.

His healing field is a very small area on a very high cooldown. If you see a soldier using it, you just wait 4 seconds. He won't advance... the only way you can make "use" of it (that isn't about winning a stupid 1on1 fight) is when you set it onto the payload.

That's a Soldier 76 using the heal wrong then. It's a tool you can use to slip away if you're being overwhelmed, or it's a tool you can use to heal up a few HP and pin down a Bastion. I've killed so many Bastions (or forced them out of position) by hiding around a corner, taking a few shots, healing, popping back out while they try to heal, and bursting them down.

This is so stupid... you are lowering his already low DPS and he doesn't have any kind of burst aside of his Helix, which need to connect... if they don't connect, they aren't stronger than a single McCree bullet.
Mcree can do ~800 dmg in 2,5 seconds (every 6 seconds)... Soldier can do like...350 in that amount of time (helix direct hit included, no headshots, every 8 seconds)

Lowering his "DPS" by bursting? That's how you retain accuracy as a Soldier 76. Three round burst, rapidly click your LMB rather than just hold it down. Also he can do this at long range while McCree has to be right next to his target to get any benefit from Fan the Hammer. I'd take 350 damage at range over 800 damage every six seconds at close range any day.

I suppose you also think Widowmaker is weak because she can only deal around 200 damage every 2 seconds, right?

[Endus]

You didn't have to take me word for word for this... what I'm saying is that his DPS is comparable to any other hero in the game. Even supports.

And this claim of yours is flat-out untrue.

This is so stupid... you are lowering his already low DPS and he doesn't have any kind of burst aside of his Helix, which need to connect... if they don't connect, they aren't stronger than a single McCree bullet.

Helix rockets that miss do exactly as much damage as a McCree bullet that misses; 0.

Helix rockets that hit do more than triple the damage of a McCree bullet, though. And Soldier 76 is still shooting regular bullets, too.

Mcree can do ~800 dmg in 2,5 seconds (every 6 seconds)... Soldier can do like...350 in that amount of time (helix direct hit included, no headshots, every 8 seconds)

How are you working that out?

Here's the collated data; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1751764739

McCree, if he fans, rolls, and fans again, can deal like 800 damage, in close proximity, and with such terrible accuracy that unless you're right next to a bulky enemy or use a stun grenade, you're gonna miss a bunch. Beyond near-melee range, he's not dealing that damage.

Soldier 76, on the other hand, has that damage at most ranges. There's some falloff with his regular bullets, but it's not as short as McCree's.

Nobody's arguing McCree doesn't have strengths, but Soldier 76 does as well.

No.. and no his 15s CD on heal is one of, if not *the* highest cooldown in the game.

Largely because it has a duration. They don't want you stacking them, or something. The cooldown starts when you drop it, but that means it's active for the first 4 seconds of that 15, only leaving 11 seconds out of healing.

[Museigen]

It really sounds like some people have played little to no FPS games before. It also sounds like they are assuming what matters in RPG/MOBA/RTS matters in the same way in FPS. Take a step back and accept you might need to learn a new genre, which might require an entirely different mindset.