What Blizzard has produced in the last 3 years

[Gilgameshh]

Because it was a big cop out for the first big raid to be a copy/paste from Vanilla with numbers scaled up and very few alterations (Like Mograine being replaced in the 4H encounter but the mechanics being the same).

So people were just complaining to complain? That's supposed to be a valid argument against throwing Naxx into WotLK? Sure, I would have liked another epic raid in its stead, but I was very happy with everything but the difficulty. There were a TON of people complaining that they never got to experience Naxx, and while in most cases I don't have sympathy if you don't see the content, Naxx in specific was out a ridiculously short amount of time. I think it's great that we got it again.

[KrazyK923]

So people were just complaining to complain? That's supposed to be a valid argument against throwing Naxx into WotLK? Sure, I would have liked another epic raid in its stead, but I was very happy with everything but the difficulty. There were a TON of people complaining that they never got to experience Naxx, and while in most cases I don't have sympathy if you don't see the content, Naxx in specific was out a ridiculously short amount of time. I think it's great that we got it again.

I like how all you do is disregard opinions you disagree with as "complaining to complain."

No, it was a cop out because they didn't make a new raid instance. They copypasta'd one they had already built but with exceptionally small changes.

Yes, it sucked that Naxx was seen by so few people (And that's from somebody who raided a small part of Naxx in Vanilla), but that doesn't mean it should be fine to just copy that raid rather than another new, unique Scourge-based raid.

Once again I'll point out I loved BC and Wrath when they were relevant content. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at them objectively. The same goes for Vanilla, but I've seen what happens on these forums when somebody who actually played back then tries to talk about how the game really was vs the nostalgia goggle argument.

[grexly75]

Well going by what is on Blizzards own site http://us.battle.net/wow/en/zone/#expansion=0 Vanilla had 20 dungeons and 6 raids bearing in mind that of those 6 Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj was the only 20 man raid at the time http://www.wowhead.com/zone=3429/ruins-of-ahnqiraj all the others were 40 man..

TBC had 16 dungeons and 8 raids with Karazhan and later Zul Aman being the only 10 man raids..

WoTLK had 16 dungeons and 9 raids though in all fairness there were only 7 unique raids as Naxx and Ony were rehashed Vanilla raids..

Cata had 14 dungeons but only 10 of them were unique as you had Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep rehashed, and Zul Aman and Zul Gurub converted from raids to dungeons.. And only 6 raids..

MoP had 9 dungeons but only 6 were unique as 3 were redone Vanilla dungeons and it had 5 raids..

As you can see that while Vanilla had the most dungeons, BC had the most raids followed closely by WoTLK and Cata.. And when I mean that BC had the most raids that is most new/unique raids and not rehashed ones..

[Eleccybubb]

Well going by what is on Blizzards own site http://us.battle.net/wow/en/zone/#expansion=0 Vanilla had 20 dungeons and 6 raids bearing in mind that of those 6 Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj was the only 20 man raid at the time http://www.wowhead.com/zone=3429/ruins-of-ahnqiraj all the others were 40 man..

TBC had 16 dungeons and 8 raids with Karazhan and later Zul Aman being the only 10 man raids..

WoTLK had 16 dungeons and 9 raids though in all fairness there were only 7 unique raids as Naxx and Ony were rehashed Vanilla raids..

Cata had 14 dungeons but only 10 of them were unique as you had Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep rehashed, and Zul Aman and Zul Gurub converted from raids to dungeons.. And only 6 raids..

MoP had 9 dungeons but only 6 were unique as 3 were redone Vanilla dungeons and it had 5 raids..

As you can see that while Vanilla had the most dungeons, BC had the most raids followed closely by WoTLK and Cata.. And when I mean that BC had the most raids that is most new/unique raids and not rehashed ones..

ZG was 20 man. Came out before ruins.

[grexly75]

ZG was 20 man. Came out before ruins.

Ahh k was close I thought it was a 40 man my bad there.. lol I thought it was the other way around but no worries.. Since even though I started playing in Vanilla I didn't start raiding till Burning Crusade..

[Gilgameshh]

Were the bosses the same? No. Was the layout the same? No. However the environments are identical. The themes were identical. Many of the mobs were straight up copy/pasted.

I care about unique art because it shows that they actually want to have unique experiences. It also shows that much, much more care and work went into them. Not just barf out thirty dungeons with only about 5 or 6 actual unique environments.

The environments are identical, yes... the dungeons are themed the same way. What's the problem there, exactly? What, you can only have one dungeon for each theme in the game? That seems a little ridiculous. The whole point of the wings, from my understanding, was so we didn't have huge single dungeons like Sunken Temple and BRD again.

I still don't see why you care so much about unique art. It seems like you feel like you're wasting your time if you play in dungeons that have reused art. That's a bit silly, don't you think?

[KrazyK923]

The environments are identical, yes... the dungeons are themed the same way. What's the problem there, exactly? What, you can only have one dungeon for each theme in the game? That seems a little ridiculous. The whole point of the wings, from my understanding, was so we didn't have huge single dungeons like Sunken Temple and BRD again.

I still don't see why you care so much about unique art. It seems like you feel like you're wasting your time if you play in dungeons that have reused art. That's a bit silly, don't you think?

Or maybe I just want the dungeons to feel special.

I like how this idea seems so foreign to you that you can't fathom somebody would think this way.

You want my cynical response? Having 4 dungeons with the same art is lazy. There's a huge difference between having thirty dungeons where a programmer can copy and paste the same 5 environments and barf out 30 vs 8 dungeons that look and feel completely, 100% different.

There are even more like this in Legion. Even in Suramar, where the Court of Stars and the Arcway are located, they seem completely different because they take place in different areas and feel entirely separate from one another.

[Gilgameshh]

I like how all you do is disregard opinions you disagree with as "complaining to complain."

No, it was a cop out because they didn't make a new raid instance. They copypasta'd one they had already built but with exceptionally small changes.

Yes, it sucked that Naxx was seen by so few people (And that's from somebody who raided a small part of Naxx in Vanilla), but that doesn't mean it should be fine to just copy that raid rather than another new, unique Scourge-based raid.

Once again I'll point out I loved BC and Wrath when they were relevant content. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at them objectively. The same goes for Vanilla, but I've seen what happens on these forums when somebody who actually played back then tries to talk about how the game really was vs the nostalgia goggle argument.

Saying that Naxx in Wrath was a copout is not even close to a valid excuse as to why its presence was worth bitching about. If you didn't see the content, and you could never go back and see it because the original was removed... what the hell is the problem, exactly? I'm confused. Again, it was people just complaining to complain if not for the difficulty. I don't see another way to put it.

[KrazyK923]

Saying that Naxx in Wrath was a copout is not even close to a valid excuse as to why its presence was worth bitching about. If you didn't see the content, and you could never go back and see it because the original was removed... what the hell is the problem, exactly? I'm confused. Again, it was people just complaining to complain if not for the difficulty. I don't see another way to put it.

It's a completely valid excuse. I wanted a new raid. Not a copy/pasted one with numbers tuned up.

You ignoring people's reasons isn't bitching for bitching sake.

By the way, they only removed Naxx from Vanilla because they brought it back in Wrath. Removing it and having it appear in Wrath weren't two separate choices. If they would have made a new scourge-based raid in 3.0 Naxx would have stayed right where it was.

[Gilgameshh]

Or maybe I just want the dungeons to feel special.

I like how this idea seems so foreign to you that you can't fathom somebody would think this way.

You want my cynical response? Having 4 dungeons with the same art is lazy. There's a huge difference between having thirty dungeons where a programmer can copy and paste the same 5 environments and barf out 30 vs 8 dungeons that look and feel completely, 100% different.

You sure aren't writing responses that give any other impression than: "I feel like reused art is below me, therefore I don't enjoy the content."

I told you to each their own several responses ago, but I'll happily continue the debate with you.

[KrazyK923]

You sure aren't writing responses that give any other impression than: "I feel like reused art is below me, therefore I don't enjoy the content."

I told you to each their own several responses ago, but I'll happily continue the debate with you.

Except I never said that. Maybe if you stopped presenting what I've said as something I haven't, and then flatout dismissing my opinion because you disagreed, you wouldn't come off like you're handwaving away opinions that you don't share.

But I can see you aren't interested in doing that, so I'm done.

[Gilgameshh]

It's a completely valid excuse. I wanted a new raid. Not a copy/pasted one with numbers tuned up.

You ignoring people's reasons isn't bitching for bitching sake.

By the way, they only removed Naxx from Vanilla because they brought it back in Wrath. Removing it and having it appear in Wrath weren't two separate choices. If they would have made a new scourge-based raid in 3.0 Naxx would have stayed right where it was.

You wanted a new raid. Did you play through Naxx in vanilla? If not, there's your new raid.

Yes, they removed it because they added it in Wrath. Throughout this game's history, it's the only raid people have had very little time to experience while it was relevant. This is why they put it in Wrath. Again, I fail to see the problem.

[grexly75]

It's a completely valid excuse. I wanted a new raid. Not a copy/pasted one with numbers tuned up.

You ignoring people's reasons isn't bitching for bitching sake.

By the way, they only removed Naxx from Vanilla because they brought it back in Wrath. Removing it and having it appear in Wrath weren't two separate choices. If they would have made a new scourge-based raid in 3.0 Naxx would have stayed right where it was.

Well since Naxx fitted the theme of WoTLK and as such a convenient and clever use of resources..

[Eleccybubb]

Well since Naxx fitted the theme of WoTLK and as such a convenient and clever use of resources..

Idd would have been moronic for Arthas and KT to leave Naxx there with the Argent Dawn and now Ebon Blade looming over them.

[Gilgameshh]

Except I never said that. Maybe if you stopped presenting what I've said as something I haven't, and then flatout dismissing my opinion because you disagreed, you wouldn't come off like you're handwaving away opinions that you don't share.

But I can see you aren't interested in doing that, so I'm done.

I think the irony here is palpable. Anyway, this has unfortunately devolved into something way off topic, so I agree we'll end it there.

[grexly75]

Idd would have been moronic for Arthas and KT to leave Naxx there with the Argent Dawn and now Ebon Blade looming over them. Oh and the Silver Hand.

Exactly you don't leave powerful assets behind to be taken over by your enemy..

[KrazyK923]

Exactly you don't leave powerful assets behind to be taken over by your enemy..

Well the point was that in Vanilla Naxx was all but taken down by the Argent Crusade, with Kel'thuzad dead and his phylactery taken by somebody who we had no idea was actually evil until they decided to make him evil in Wrath.

At best, in Vanilla, the Crusade reported that the phylactery curiously never made it to them, but Naxx was still completely overrun and removed as a threat.

But then they just bibbity bobbity boo'd it back and just handwaved away "oh the lich king resurrected them all again" eye-rolling reasoning to "justify" them copy/pasting it into Wrath.

[Deleted]

Completely different teams work on those games. Discussion is specific to wow.

No its not when the title is "What Blizzard has produced in the last 3 years?".
Then its completly solid to point too hots, hs, sc2, d3 and ov. especially if you see people from wow moving to these other games.

[grexly75]

Well the point was that in Vanilla Naxx was all but taken down by the Argent Crusade, with Kel'thuzad dead and his phylactery taken by somebody who we had no idea was actually evil until they decided to make him evil in Wrath.

If you mean Arthas it was Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne when he became the Lich King at the end of it so it was already written that he would become evil..

[Eleccybubb]

If you mean Arthas it was Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne when he became the Lich King at the end of it so it was already written that he would become evil..

Yup. Wrath basically continues that story.