[Beta] Havoc Discussion

[TheLimonTree]

Idea to make bloodlet and MotG better:
Bloodlet:
Enemies hit with Throw Glaive are affected by Bloodlet for 5 seconds, causing melee attacks to deal an additional 25% damage over 10 seconds.
numbers not final.

Master of the Glaive:
Increases glaive throw to 5 targets and bounce range to 15 yards.

[Deleted]

Your opinion. Don't state it as fact.

Oh give it a rest. It's not intended behaviour, requires 3 extra actions to be made in order to essentially prevent half of the ability from even occuring.

And it being clunky is a fact. That's the whole nature of having to hit 3 different keys in order to achieve 1 action from 1 ability. If it was intuitive it wouldn't require any of that.

This whole "Your opinion, don't state as fact" shit is going too far. Knock it off.

- - - Updated - - -

I found that jump and double jump before VR allows you to glide immediately after. So maybe not such a hit to mobility.

**Edit**

Just played around so more. You can still glide after a VR without jumping before, just not immediately after. I found making a /glide macro and mashing it until wings popped.

Not as simple as before but it works.

That doesn't sound clunky at all.

[chooi]

Oh give it a rest. It's not intended behaviour, requires 3 extra actions to be made in order to essentially prevent half of the ability from even occuring.

And it being clunky is a fact. That's the whole nature of having to hit 3 different keys in order to achieve 1 action from 1 ability. If it was intuitive it wouldn't require any of that.

This whole "Your opinion, don't state as fact" shit is going too far. Knock it off.

Have you even played on Beta? Because you know nothing, Jon Snow.

It's 2 buttons. 1 button that you press anyway (Fel Rush) and Space (Jump). Wow! That's some really serious business... 'ermahgerd...tooo haaaaard'

[Vanyali]

I found that jump and double jump before VR allows you to glide immediately after. So maybe not such a hit to mobility.

**Edit**

Just played around so more. You can still glide after a VR without jumping before, just not immediately after. I found making a /glide macro and mashing it until wings popped.

Not as simple as before but it works.

Sure this isn't lag? It wasn't working for me, but I'll try again later :B

Wings also won't activate for me until I'm almost at the ground, even if I'm vr'ing off a cliff.

[MightyWarrior]

Sure this isn't lag? It wasn't working for me, but I'll try again later :B

Wings also won't activate for me until I'm almost at the ground, even if I'm vr'ing off a cliff.

Well there goes the mobility for getting up cliffs

[The Archmage]

Have you even played on Beta? Because you know nothing, Jon Snow.

It's 2 buttons. 1 button that you press anyway (Fel Rush) and Space (Jump). Wow! That's some really serious business... 'ermahgerd...tooo haaaaard'

I don't think the point is about how hard it is to pull it out.

I think it's about whether it should be even possible to do so or not. And, to me at least, the answer is clearly no. It could be fun to play or tamper with, make the class the best melee of the game, allow us to rock the dps charts, but i'd still want it out of the game: mainly because, no matter how you look at it, it's unintended, it's a cheat and like all unintended cheats that have a high enough relevance to the class' performance, eventually will be toned down, removed, nerfed, changed or somehow messed up with. And we all have enough experience in this game to know how much more complicated these things are to get right once the game is out of the Alpha/Beta process: better fixed now that sorry later.

Moreover, as all unintended things, it ruins things visually, making the game ridiculous (to my eyes at least): what is a nicely animated vault back gets butchered into a chickened wing flap mid air that makes the character do something for absolutely no reason. One guy doing that gives little harm, getting lost between the many players: put 4 or 5 DHs all trying to pull out those tricks and what could be an epic, visually well designed fight becomes a bunch of crazy guys jumping around like headless chickens for no reason whatsoever, completely ruining all the effort that Blizzard dished out into making new, class themed fitting animations for special attacks, movement abilities and whatnot.

[MightyWarrior]

In attempt to remove animation cancelling, does that mean they'll butcher the Demon Hunter mobility?:/

[Vanyali]

In attempt to remove animation cancelling, does that mean they'll butcher the Demon Hunter mobility?:/

None of the fixes really do much to destroy DH mobility for anything other than glide. And you can still glide when you're at the end of your arc for VR, you don't have to hit the ground.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Good to see some of that vitriol from the official forums carry over to here /s

My opinion on the matter is simple: if they kept Chi Torpedo the way it was for this long, then there's some merit to those who want similar behavior IMO. The damage shooting out presently is the problem after all, correct? That's something that should be done away with.

When i was healing back in Throne of Thunder on the Hydra boss (Megaera i think?) it was considered a good idea to spec Chi Torpedo for healing the stack phases, and to jump before casting. I don't recall the healing shooting out, just the healing occurring in the immediate vicinity of where i was standing among my group (well, obviously it'd shoot out a bit since you didn't cancel the whole animation, just halve the distance it traveled).

The downside though is that people who want to play a spec to it's fully optimal down to the 0.1% damage increases probably don't want to feel forced to play like that: i for one didn't actually enjoy the jump + chi torpedo shenanigans, and usually did just fine actually not speccing for it for that particular fight. So if Blizzard solves the damage shooting out at least and leaves the animation cancelling in while simultaneously making the other 2 options viable so that people can pick their poison: that'd be great.

Again, I'm not crazy on the thought of animation cancelling based on my experience with MW Monks, but am not gonna campaign to take something like that away from people who actually enjoy it: just so long as they fix the unintended behavior and balance out the other options, it should be perfectly fine. In My Opinion.


All that said, was it ever determined how much of a damage increase Momentum would need to be reduced by in order to achieve balance with Nemesis and Bloodlet? Obviously Bloodlet would need to get a buff first if what you testers say is true in how awful it is by comparison, but did we ever figure out a magic number? I thought 15% to match Nemesis could be ideal in attempting to achieve said balance, but will let mathy folks say one way or another.

I also recall @wordup saying to some extent that Prepared might be more part of the problem for Momentum's imbalance than Momentum itself, or am i completely off base for saying that wordup?

Also, time to sound like a broken record! I still think Momentum should have VR increase the damage of your next FR by X%. That way you really *are* playing the jumping playstyle and would maybe even then be discouraged to even try and pull off @Vanyali 's cheaty little macro :P

[wordup]

I personally think that the problem with Momentum was largely tied to how good Prepared is and Momentum is accentuated so much by that talent which is already arguably the best on the whole tree (slightly worse now animation cancelling is on its way out) yes.

[chooi]

Again, I'm not crazy on the thought of animation cancelling based on my experience with MW Monks, but am not gonna campaign to take something like that away from people who actually enjoy it: just so long as they fix the unintended behavior and balance out the other options, it should be perfectly fine. In My Opinion.

That's a thing I can absolutely agree with.

My point is not to keep the 'damage shooting out part'. I'm okay with them fixing this. If you're cancelling FR it should only deal damage where you are actually standing (= if you're in/close to the hitbox).

I'm only supporting animation cancelling because of the movement component. Because there are and will be situations where you just don't want to rush the whole distance (or leap away with VR). I want to have control about that because if not it makes an entire build not even subpar but pretty much useless. Try VR into Felblade on Helya and you will understand what I mean and why I'm promoting this. I'd like to avoid that.

Of course, it would be even better if Blizz just fixed the general design of said abilities/talents. I've already written a longer post about why VR's design is contradictory for a melee class and how it could be changed to make it more useful in all situations. But realistically, that's just not gonna happen.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

Of course, it would be even better if Blizz just fixed the general design of said abilities/talents. I've already written a longer post about why VR's design is contradictory for a melee class and how it could be changed to make it more useful in all situations. But realistically, that's just not gonna happen.

I understand the sentiment of a disengage seeming contradictory for a melee class, but seems hardly true when there's at least one other melee who has a means of getting out of a fight or disengaged in some fashion; though considerably stronger than how VR functions (talking about Vanish, of course).

VR might not make sense for melee, generally speaking, but it does make sense for Demon Hunters: especially in cases such as Prepared and/ or Momentum. Snaring your foe, vaulting out, and using your "unrivaled" mobility to gain an advantage (in this case, Fury or a flat damage increase) to then either make an escape or renew your assault stronger than ever.


And I agree VR isn't going anywhere, it fits the fantasy of a class that is able to seemingly jump in midair among other things: even if I prefer to think of my (future) DH being a bit more "up in ur grill m8" and sustaining herself with the shattered souls of her vanquished enemies >

This is all, of course, how I see it and entirely in my opinion: not a statement of fact. And I greatly appreciate a good, reasonable discussion on it

[wordup]

I think personally that VR fits just fine and is an incredibly useful tool for a melee (if we remove all the talents that are messing with it atm). There are very frequently situations you want to get out of melee range very quickly (cleave, point blank AoE, repositioning to other adds, etc.) and it provides a predictable distance directly backward that is at a pretty high speed to chain in with Fel Rush or just running to them. I think comparing it to Disengage is a little unfair, as that is used purely to reposition offensively or avoid (and is a ranged tool which have very different rules to melee), whilst VR is used defensively or to shorten run distance.

[Schlosh]

Comparing fel Rush animation cancelling to chi torpedo isn't fair if you ask me. I can 100% of the time jump and then hit chi torpedo to only travel a short distance. Every single time. It's that easy. It never fails. However. No matter what I do. I can only seem to get fel Rush to cancel 1/10 attempts. I could be doing something wrong. But it shouldn't be that difficult if it's gonna create an issue if it fails and you do rush forward. That's not a skill difference. That's a I use a mouse macro to gain an advantage. The cancelling needs to go or the talents needs to be reworked which I think 90% of the people in here are in agreement with.

[Slirith]

Didn't Momentum back in early Alpha only work with BD or am I remembering only half of the talent?

[chematus]

I've read all 29 pages by now and can't help but post a wall of whining text with my opinion on current situation.

I've been among those who was hyped as fck about DH release. I liked the flavour and concept of the class.
But atm its whole design gives me feeling like i'm playing some indie MMORPG.
Taking in count that DH (speaking of Havoc) currently has less abilities than any other spec in the game, they still have half of their toolset pretty dead. Let me explain:

Vengeful Retreat - without prepared or momentum has no practical use, you can just remove it from panel and nothing changes. It had iteration which made it good: when it first was shown it made you dodge next spell/attack after use.

Blade Dance - in current state it's nothing than another situational AoE which is useful only on 9k+ targets 'cause of low base dmg. Even talent doesn't change it a lot and serves another example of poor talent design like "adds X% dmg".

Throw Glaive - one range ability every melee needs (just like rogue's Throw or warrior's Heroic Throw) just to pull flying enemies. The problem is it has 2 talents which sadly don't make it useful neither in terms of raw DPS nor in terms of utility.

Spectral Sight - I like this ability, it adds flavout to class. But like someone said before me it's stuck in between playable and nerfed state. Blizz really need to either remove slow out of it or make it without CD again.

Metamorphosis - not exactly dead ability, but I have so much back pain when think of it. It's in fact 5 mins cd burst which changes nothing but ONE of your abilities (I cant see any point to use upgraded Blade Dance, cause it has the same problems as its default version) that make it even worst than shaman's Ascendance IMO.

And what about talents:

Demonic Appetite - not worth taking in current state.

Demon Blades - needs a lot of research, but atm it requires you to change all your stats and gear to make your rotation even more dull.

Demon Reborn - dead.

Bloodlet - useless in terms of DPS, especially when it's on the same tier as Momentum.

Nemesis - another example of poor talent design.

MotG - same as Bloodlet. It potentially has any uses, mostly in PvP, but there're much more tasty talents on same tier.

Fel Barage - I have no fckn idea what it was supposed to be and what niche to take. Maybe some crazy burst shenanigans, but currently also not worth taking 'cause of broken charge generation mechanic.

And what about Momentum. I'm not a huge fan of it. I'm not happy that I'll suffer playing so hurry-scurry build and having to animation cancel during bossfight just to be competitive in terms of DPS.
The problem is that in most part of this huge thread we don't discuss fun mechanics or new situational builds, we discuss animation cancel and versions of only viable build - Momentum build.

I don't want to make that post even longer, so I see no need to make another notice that Havoc legendaries mostly sucks.

To add some weight to this opinion have to say that I've spent 50+ hours since x-mas (not so much, but I have idea of what happening to this spec) playing different DH builds mostly PvE, and I've never missed any Legion patchnotes.
Anyway, thank you so much guys for sharing your ideas and experience and sorry for my poor english.

[Manu9]

useful only on 9k+ targets

Holy Bananas Batman!

[Vanyali]

@chematus

BD, and Meta analysis are detached from sims; BD is still good on 4+ targets without the talent, and 1+ targets with the talent. Death sweep also hits like a truck, especially with Balanced Blades (which you should have, because it's a straight-up 10% buff even single-target). VR is also good for "oh shit, boss is doing x, gotta get out fast" even outside of momentum".

DA is worth taking for the fury on a 2-target fight (or ST) and sometimes AoE (@Wordup, your sims are showing it's roughly equal to BF, right?), the heal is irrelevant (and the fury + heal + cd reduction is what made it an absolutely broken talent, which is why it got changed).

Nemesis is also alright, it's just overshadowed by the synergy of momentum + prepared + demonic, which is bound to get nerfed (2 minute fights with 60%+ of one ability is not something blizz likes to leave unnerfed).

Fel Barrage will be fine.. once the synergy of the others is broken up and the proc chance increases.

Demon Blades is also fine, and border-line broken when we get the ring legendary, which is BEYOND amazing, and enough crit (say, 50%). The ring legendary is cannot be stressed how good it is. The helm is also very good on AoE (you're all but guaranteed a 50% CD reduction, so have Meta up that much more).

The reason we talk about the momentum build is it is the *only* build as it's your pvp AND raid build due to insane burst and self-healing that other specs cannot compete with.

[chematus]

BD, and Meta analysis are detached from sims; BD is still good on 4+ targets without the talent, and 1+ targets with the talent. Death sweep also hits like a truck, especially with Balanced Blades (which you should have, because it's a straight-up 10% buff even single-target). VR is also good for "oh shit, boss is doing x, gotta get out fast" even outside of momentum".

A few pages ago I've seen simc that says that BD is worth using on 6+ targets without talent and 4+ with it, is it old or smth?
Balanced Blades is artifact talent and maybe it's old way of thinking, but I want to see spec finished without artifact or legendaries.
Another problem with VR IMO its range is too low and animation is too slow to get away from troubles, and at the same moment that range is enough to make you waste time getting back to your target.
And what about meta? Don't say you are glad to see how such a strong fantasy ability is made into so dull dps cd.

DA is worth taking for the fury on a 2-target fight (or ST) and sometimes AoE (Wordup, your sims are showing it's roughly equal to BF, right?), the heal is irrelevant (and the fury + heal + cd reduction is what made it an absolutely broken talent, which is why it got changed).

"it's roughly equal" so what's the point? I'd prefer stable DPS gain with BF over RNG with shards. I agree that it was broken as fck in its previous iteration, but now there's no point to take it. I'd sell my kidney to see it being the baseline of spec.

Nemesis is also alright, it's just overshadowed by the synergy of momentum + prepared + demonic, which is bound to get nerfed (2 minute fights with 60%+ of one ability is not something blizz likes to leave unnerfed).

In terms of it's usability you are right, but in terms of ability design that talent is bullsh*t.

Demon Blades is also fine, and border-line broken when we get the ring legendary, which is BEYOND amazing, and enough crit (say, 50%). The ring legendary is cannot be stressed how good it is. The helm is also very good on AoE (you're all but guaranteed a 50% CD reduction, so have Meta up that much more).

I missed the part of ring description where it buffs DB, so yeah, it may have uses lately. But anyway, that's the problem i addressed earlier, class should be finalized without artifact or legendaries and DB without legendary ring is kinda dull.
The helm is situational(ST effect is close to uselessness), but good.

[Vanyali]

A few pages ago I've seen simc that says that BD is worth using on 6+ targets without talent and 4+ with it, is it old or smth?
Balanced Blades is artifact talent and maybe it's old way of thinking, but I want to see spec finished without artifact or legendaries.
Another problem with VR IMO its range is too low and animation is too slow to get away from troubles, and at the same moment that range is enough to make you waste time getting back to your target.
And what about meta? Don't say you are glad to see how such a strong fantasy ability is made into so dull dps cd.


"it's roughly equal" so what's the point? I'd prefer stable DPS gain with BF over RNG with shards. I agree that it was broken as fck in its previous iteration, but now there's no point to take it. I'd sell my kidney to see it being the baseline of spec.


In terms of it's usability you are right, but in terms of ability design that talent is bullsh*t.


I missed the part of ring description where it buffs DB, so yeah, it may have uses lately. But anyway, that's the problem i addressed earlier, class should be finalized without artifact or legendaries and DB without legendary ring is kinda dull.
The helm is situational(ST effect is close to uselessness), but good.

I'm not certain that the public simC is finished (I know Wordup uses simC, but not sure which version), but this is experience in dungeons and testing - if you don't use BD with 4+ targets you'll get left in the dust by DHs that do. Even without the talent. It just scales far too well with BB.

The class will be finished this expansion with the artifact. No ifs, ands, or butts - that's how this expansion is designed. The artifact is *essential*, and saying it's not good because without the artifact is like saying an ability isn't good because you didn't wear gear... it's not a situation that's ever going to be relevant.

VR has a very fast animation and the same range as FR - lag might be the issue if you think it's slow. It's fast enough to get you out of anything in melee without taking a tick. That's also why Felblade is so good (aside from the slight increase in damage) now that VR animation cancel has been addressed.

And meta is extremely strong. They could drop the CD to a standard 3min, but they'd have to nerf the crap out of it to do so, as well as nerfing demonic. We're not WARLOCKS who want to become demons - we're demon hunters, who want to CONTROL our demons. If you want the "more demons, more demons, losing control" fantasy.. that's what demonic is for - that's you losing control, that's you losing the battle against the fel within, that's the demons trying to take over in a Loramous situation.

DA is also very stable - every 20s you will get a shard. And you can use that fury *anywhere* rather than being rooted with BF, which has huge advantages. It also means in an AoE situation if you get the last kill (ez, just save BD / EB a few seconds if you see them getting low and you'll snag most of 'em) fury is overflowing.

Nemesis is *meant* to be a "apply and forget" talent - that's the point of it. It's for people that don't want the hustle bustle run like a maniac of Momentum. Or fights that you will die on should you try that without some very very very good timing.


Legendaries are going to be mandatory for any serious raiding. Always are, always have been. The ring first, then the helm when second unlocks, probably the boot when the third unlocks because it'll be good for aoe momentum. The helm is, again, not even CLOSE to useless ST - a 50% decrease of CD single target gives you that much more time with Demonic, which is absolutely huge.