[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Super Kami Dende]

Finally got Beta. Figured I'd try Veng out. Wasn't expecting much but holy shit it is fun. May actually make Veng my Tank character and make my main my DPS character.

[Zabbs]

@Munkky, great job on compiling that stuff in your spreadsheet so far! I would caution on compiling a BiS list or recommended talent set ups this early though. Several talent tiers are wildly untunned right now and raid trinkets haven't really been tested. It is hard to account for all variables for evaluating something like Tier 108 without using a more robust model. I had thought about doing something similar myself, but with the state of Beta I felt it may end up being a lot of time for little gain. Interesting take on the state of the class so far though!

[Munkky]

I do agree with you, but the question on talents comes up a lot so I just added I the cheat sheet so people stop asking. It isn't permanent and I will keep it updated as things change as its incredibly easy to do.

I have not made a bis list yet because it's not even finalized. I was just posting that for the future. To get things started.

This is all editable so if I make it now I can change it later.

I have thought of everything you've said already, so it's all good. Also thank you

Also for tier 108, it's not hard to compare the talents. For dps just see how many blade turning procs you need to beat out fel deva and how many you get per min on average. Spirit bomb isn't worth. Easy.

[Zabbs]

@Munkky, cool! Great! I'm sure you've seen people posting very assumptive statements about beta on MMO Champ. It's hard to gauge who draws conclusions too early on this website despite this thread being of good quality. I hope I didn't sound like I was talking down to you or anything.

As far as DPS talents go, that is probably the only thing to compare so far it seems lol. I do like that we have the option to talent into more DPS over more mitigation in this new talent iteration. I know the devs said early on that they wanted to avoid that sort of choice and that good mitigation should equal good dps. That risk vs reward decision is part of a decent skill cap imo.

[ShasVa]

Vengeance does seem to shaping up good. It certainly has quite the extensive toolkit.

I'm just concerned about tanking in general, especially in LFR (I consider myself a casual-ish player). But that is aimed more at the other players in LFR rather than whatever tank I'm playing. If those other players do their job, then I'm confident I can do mine.

It'd be nice if we had access to all of the talents. Not having to choose between Felblade and Flame Crash would be nice, but we can all dream.

[Promdates]

Nerf to Darkness (as usual). That's about it for us this build.

[FenixAU]

Good news - the wording of darkness 'avoid the damage of an attack' isn't as bad as it sounds. It can avoid the damage (shows up as healing in combat log, so guessing it's actually an absorb mechanic) of multiple attacks, not just a single one.
Bad news - 15% is about as garbage as it can get without being removed, at this point. Tried it out vs 6 mobs 5 times, a total of 2, 1, 0, 0, 1 attacks avoided. Woo RNG.

[Cooper]

Good news - the wording of darkness 'avoid the damage of an attack' isn't as bad as it sounds. It can avoid the damage (shows up as healing in combat log, so guessing it's actually an absorb mechanic) of multiple attacks, not just a single one.
Bad news - 15% is about as garbage as it can get without being removed, at this point. Tried it out vs 6 mobs 5 times, a total of 2, 1, 0, 0, 1 attacks avoided. Woo RNG.

I don't know if 15% is too low or not, but it applies to everybody within the Area of Effect, so while 15% chance to avoid damage for an individual isn't great, it is much better for a raid group. Especially if it is for all attacks that occur during the duration.

I mean, it's still a nerf, but it isn't really meant for a lone individual and looking at it that way isn't really a good measure of its potential.

[FenixAU]

I don't know if 15% is too low or not, but it applies to everybody within the Area of Effect, so while 15% chance to avoid damage for an individual isn't great, it is much better for a raid group. Especially if it is for all attacks that occur during the duration.

I mean, it's still a nerf, but it isn't really meant for a lone individual and looking at it that way isn't really a good measure of its potential.

Sure, sure. I'll grant that. But even at 20%, it was barely useful as an AoE reduction. Hell, it hasn't felt particularly strong as a group cooldown since 50%.

I have a philosophical problem, generally speaking, with the concept of a raid cooldown that isn't reliable. 20 people stand in it, 15% chance for each player to avoid damage. It's quite feasible that nobody will have any damage prevented whatsoever. It's also possible that every single person will. But as a raid leader, you just can't rely on it. Sure, throw it down and it might help - but no raid leader worth their salt will consider it as a serious cooldown. And I would therefore contend that it is pretty much meaningless as a raid cooldown. It's completely incidental. Might save one or two people from needing a heal during some big burst mechanic - but that doesn't make a lick of difference to the healers, who still need to bomb the raid with AoE heals to cope. It's a mathematical gain, but I would argue that practically speaking, it's pretty meh.

The change in mechanic for it from miss chance to a pseudo-absorb mechanic also means that, for the tank individually, it no longer counts as a roll on the hit table - which makes it significantly weaker than it was pre-patch (20% miss added on to the hit table on top of parry and dodge chance made for some decent avoidance).

Don't get me wrong, I do get your point. I just don't see it as a particularly enticing drawcard. Even Smoke Bomb at 10% was far superior. At least it was guaranteed DR.

[Delimit]

IMO, the biggest problems of Darkness are the radius and the fact that it's not a damage reduction. 8 yard radius won't cover melee in a lot of boss fights, which means you'll be sitting in it with your co-tank. 15% chance isn't reliable enough to ever count on, so you'll hit it and hope that you get lucky. You'll never be able to plan around it doing anything, which makes you inevitably have to plan for it not to work, so you're covering that point anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Was cross posting with Fenix.

I would also agree that it hasn't felt valuable since 50%. 30% was ok, 20% was quite "meh". 15% is like, what's the point?

[FenixAU]

Delimit managed to sum up what I was rambling about in a much shorter paragraph. But yeah.

I'd rather they went back to the drawing board with the ability than leave it at 15%.

[Cooper]

Oh, I don't disagree. At 15% Darkness seems like a "throw it down and maybe you'll get lucky but nobody actually cares about it" kind of ability. Personally, I liked the 50% Miss chance version just because I always liked the "Drop a Globe of Darkness and blindfight in it" Drow thing, plus it went well with the whole "Demon Hunters have no eyes" thing.

15% seems more like... a late afternoon shade than darkness.

[Zabbs]

Darkness should mathematically turn out like Smoke Bomb on average, but who cares about averages. We'll probably just layer it with other CDs. I guess a Raid CD is better than no Raid CDs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the whole mechanic is scrapped by the end with how it's tuning is going. I don't think they will turn into DR since then it is just Smoke Bomb. That just leaves heal and absorb mechanics. An absorb mechanic seems like a possibility. An AoE Soul Barrier so to speak. That may a bit of a push on the class identity side though.

[Raiju]

50% was completely broken beyond any realistic tuning before, and to add it was also larger and a shorter cd at the time!

20% was reasonable, the RNG aspect balanced out the slightly higher % to commanding shout. Now it's just an inferior commanding shout with a small area of effect

[8bithamster]

and my tanky DH is dead..

WHenever I log in, I have half havoc, half vengeance abilities (eye beam instead of immo etc). And then when I attack something, the game crashes immediatly >_<

[Agromat]

Hi, dumb question, sorry if it's been answered before - I did some searching and couldn't find it.

What's the formula for how much pain Demon Hunters get from damage taken? Is that still a mechanic in the latest build? I tried to find a recent combat log, and the DH in it appeared to get all their pain from abilities. Thanks!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=6&spell=118
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=9&spell=118

[flzk]

anyone else got a "frozen" stiff character after meta runs out ?

[Deliverer]

Hi, dumb question, sorry if it's been answered before - I did some searching and couldn't find it.

What's the formula for how much pain Demon Hunters get from damage taken? Is that still a mechanic in the latest build? I tried to find a recent combat log, and the DH in it appeared to get all their pain from abilities. Thanks!

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=6&spell=118
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=9&spell=118

should be 1 pain each 2% of hp

[Agromat]

should be 1 pain each 2% of hp

Should be, or is? I'm sorry to be pedantic, but it's weird that there's nothing showing pain gain from damage taken in the combat parses. Prot Warrior rage gain from damage taken shows up as coming from Defensive Stance, and I can't find anything in the Demon Hunter ability list that would seem to grant pain from damage taken.

If one of you with beta access could take a couple hits from the raid dummy and tell me how much pain you gain (as a multiple of total health percent lost) I'd be much obliged.

[zox2]

when finalboss tested vengeance, it was 1 pain to 2%hp loss