Could WoW benefit from a paragon system?

[PenguinChan]

And then what would be the point of a grindfest if it's not usable in endgame? Because, admit it, raid and PvP are the core endgame content of WoW.

Because raiding and PvP isn't all that exists in WoW, but let's just ignore that. Not to sound like a dick of course, but we also recently had a developer point out that raiding is very finite. The paragon system could work, and were already probably on a way to infinite progression in some form. It's just what is happening to MMORPGs and games in general, it's just a matter of when and how. My guess is more than likely we'll see it in the form of dungeons of some kind, or anything along those lines. Possibly even solo content really.

[Indigenously Abled]

I'd be fine with a paragon-like system in place for content outside of mythic raiding for a decent amount of time.

[FuxieDK]

Now, keep in mind, I have nothing really worked out, just posing the question of the title.
Basically it would work along the lines of roughly every 4 levels you could get about 1-5 points in your primary stats (agi/vit, str/vit, etc), and maybe an increase of like .05-.1% increase to secondary stats per other levels. Blizzard could reset these every 4-6 months to not let people stay overpowered. Could give people extra stuff to strive for, with increased XP based on the content you are doing.
Now, where would this apply? Obviously, as a dev, you would want to encourage people to play but not so much so that it causes people to focus 100% of your free time on the game. The most obvious choices would be world content, but it would also need to be included in others. So far, mythic+ dungeons, world, and random BG's seem to be the best option, with paragon levels disabled in other aspects of the game.

Paragon system as in D3? No thanx.. The concept behind levelling in each expansion is to wipe the slate clean, and let everyone start equal.
Valor Upgrades and Legendary Ring upgrade is WoW's version of Paragon, but luckily it also resets with new gear, as it need to.

Your work at level 100 may never give benefits to level 101...

[Eapoe]

Yeah, that'd be hell of a fun game when in a 25-player LFR there's 24 people on Paragon~100 and a random dude joins who's Paragon~1500 and one shots the boss.

Same goes for random BGs. I'd really enjoy if a Paragon~1500 player one shots me.

Paragon system wouldn't work in WoW.

Well, as I said though, every 4 paragon levels would give you 1-5 of primary stats, so keeping at 1 and giving to both, it would only be an increase of 375 points in a stat, which is not enough to 1 shot anyone. Also, if that would be an issue they could have it rotate every time which it gave you, primary stat or health. The secondary stats could also increase smaller as well to .01% increase and have those rotate, so roughly every 100 paragon levels would only equal like .1-1% increase in a secondary, not all. With ilvl increases, these stats are very inconsequential, and again, just gives players a progression system outside of the current perceived endgame.
The reset also helps with having players not be able to reach an insane amount of paragon levels. With D3, the resets are usually 6+ months, and the average player does not get up to 1000 paragon during this time, so a reset in WoW would also keep players from reaching god like status thru it.

[Hisholyness]

Artifact system already is Paragon system

[Deleted]

WoW could benefit from content that lasts enough to keep you sort of busy with one character.

I know, I know...crazy idea.

[Eapoe]

Artifact system already is Paragon system

Kinda, but not really. The way you look at it, it could be taken that way. It's more of the old talent tree system from Wrath and earlier mixed with the legendary ring/cloak. Obviously there will end up being catch up mechanics (there always are) that trivializes it later in the xpac. The problem is it's a finite system, and if I remember right there is a weekly cap to how much you earn, so with that in place, you earn you ArP and you are done for the week, much like CP/VP.

[ComputerNerd]

everquest already did it

and it did exactly what you would think happen

people with low paragon were replaced with people with high paragon

Firefall more recently did that.
And that didn't turn out too well either.
While there wasn't a widespread demand for higher levelled players, it was likely only the very limited population preventing that.

A recent improvised event by one of the developers resulted in pretty significant xp gains for players willing to take advantage of that.
And the s*** hit the fan quite significantly on the forums.

There are enough problems with artificial requirements in item levels, without adding in even more.
I suspect artifact progression will soon be used if another player can view yours, in addition to pvp level.
Player behaviour prevents this ever being a good idea.

Kinda, but not really. The way you look at it, it could be taken that way. It's more of the old talent tree system from Wrath and earlier mixed with the legendary ring/cloak. Obviously there will end up being catch up mechanics (there always are) that trivializes it later in the xpac. The problem is it's a finite system, and if I remember right there is a weekly cap to how much you earn, so with that in place, you earn you ArP and you are done for the week, much like CP/VP.

And that cap plus catchup are the only things preventing this complete segregation of those that have and those that do not.
Item level is already forming that rift with those in place.
Anyone starting late being permanently behind would only widen that.

[Eapoe]

Firefall more recently did that.
And that didn't turn out too well either.
While there wasn't a widespread demand for higher levelled players, it was likely only the very limited population preventing that.

A recent improvised event by one of the developers resulted in pretty significant xp gains for players willing to take advantage of that.
And the s*** hit the fan quite significantly on the forums.

There are enough problems with artificial requirements in item levels, without adding in even more.
I suspect artifact progression will soon be used if another player can view yours, in addition to pvp level.
Player behaviour prevents this ever being a good idea.

This is not something that benefits anyone that does current idea of endgame. It would only be in affect for things like random Bg's, world, dungeons, maybe LFR, and mythic+ dungeons (which a high paragon would not be required to obtain the loot chest).
Now, obviously the mythic+ would have the burden of people wanting higher levels, but considering all other instances are solo based, and at a very basic level where I showed a very basic way of keeping it from getting out of hand, then this would not affect group play at all.

[ComputerNerd]

This is not something that benefits anyone that does current idea of endgame. It would only be in affect for things like random Bg's, world, dungeons, maybe LFR, and mythic+ dungeons (which a high paragon would not be required to obtain the loot chest).
Now, obviously the mythic+ would have the burden of people wanting higher levels, but considering all other instances are solo based, and at a very basic level where I showed a very basic way of keeping it from getting out of hand, then this would not affect group play at all.

A high level not being required by blizzard does not reflect upon what players are demanding.
Anyone who thinks that there won't be some rift are quite frankly kidding themselves.
That has been proven by item level numerous times.

Firefall only prevented that being a huge issue due to the limited population.
That population in wow is considerably larger, and so restrictions are still giving you access to a sufficient number.

[Eapoe]

A high level not being required by blizzard does not reflect upon what players are demanding.
Anyone who thinks that there won't be some rift are quite frankly kidding themselves.
That has been proven by item level numerous times.

Firefall only prevented that being a huge issue due to the limited population.
That population in wow is considerably larger, and so restrictions are still giving you access to a sufficient number.

What would people ask for a high level for? Where would a benefit be from asking for this?

[ComputerNerd]

What would people ask for a high level for? Where would a benefit be from asking for this?

The same reason they do exactly that now with item level.
The belief that it guarantees some better class of players.
In addition to them wanting all the benefits of leading while doing less of it, which didn't used to consist of minimising your contact with other players.

[Eapoe]

The same reason they do exactly that now with item level.
The belief that it guarantees some better class of players.
In addition to them wanting all the benefits of leading while doing less of it, which didn't used to consist of minimising your contact with other players.

Again, why would people look specifically for this? I'm not saying you're illiterate, but please read again. It does not benefit the group play in the sense that there is nothing to look for. Now, one could argue that someone looking to pug a normal or heroic raid might ask for a higher paragon level, but seeing as how that does not benefit them in any way and just shows someone who plays more, vs a player with high ilvl showing they've done harder content, it doesn't go hand in hand.
I see what you are saying, I really do, but this is a benefit and perk to keep players playing and giving something to do outside of perceived endgame content. Where this only effects solo style (save for the people who form random BG's as premades), there is nothing to look for a high level for in any kind of organized play.

[ComputerNerd]

Again, why would people look specifically for this? I'm not saying you're illiterate, but please read again. It does not benefit the group play in the sense that there is nothing to look for. Now, one could argue that someone looking to pug a normal or heroic raid might ask for a higher paragon level, but seeing as how that does not benefit them in any way and just shows someone who plays more, vs a player with high ilvl showing they've done harder content, it doesn't go hand in hand.
I see what you are saying, I really do, but this is a benefit and perk to keep players playing and giving something to do outside of perceived endgame content. Where this only effects solo style (save for the people who form random BG's as premades), there is nothing to look for a high level for in any kind of organized play.

If you are so insistent that nobody should see any benefit from doing that, why is it happening.
You refuse to see what is in front of your face.
It is happening with another measurement whether you want to acknowledge that or not.

Players ARE already segregating by one number tied to stats.
Paragon levels in that form are exactly the same and will do exactly the same.
The problem there is the reward mechanism, which has the same result with bigger numbers as item level does.

Bigger item level means more stats.
Bigger paragon level means more stats.
You cannot honestly believe the community will treat that differently.

[Scrotch]

Personally, I would love a paragon style system for wow. Basically throw in an optional grind opportunity, or just add extra reward to normal gameplay.
There would be ways to implement something like that without creating the community problems of adding paragon level requirements to pugs or guild recruiting.

option 1) No player power gains. Keep it all as convenience options that affect solo play, like faster hearth cooldown or adding a bonus charge or two to it. Bonus mounted speed. Bonus hp/mp regen outdoors and out of combat. Bonus exp for alts. Faster gathering cast times. Faster mount cast times. Reduce/remove dazing and dismounting chance when hit. There are probably many more things that could be thrown in there. Of course, disable anything that might effect pvp while in pvp content.

option 2) Any player power increases via paragon are reduced or disabled in group play. Pretty straightforward, paragon only adds to solo and/or small group play power. Could either be straight up disabled as soon as you are in a group, or scale down by 25% per other player in the group, leading to no power bonuses once in a full 5 man. Still very rewarding for world quests and farming efficiency, especially for players hunting for legendaries.

[ComputerNerd]

Personally, I would love a paragon style system for wow. Basically throw in an optional grind opportunity, or just add extra reward to normal gameplay.
There would be ways to implement something like that without creating the community problems of adding paragon level requirements to pugs or guild recruiting.

option 1) No player power gains. Keep it all as convenience options that affect solo play, like faster hearth cooldown or adding a bonus charge or two to it. Bonus mounted speed. Bonus hp/mp regen outdoors and out of combat. Bonus exp for alts. Faster gathering cast times. Faster mount cast times. Reduce/remove dazing and dismounting chance when hit. There are probably many more things that could be thrown in there. Of course, disable anything that might effect pvp while in pvp content.

option 2) Any player power increases via paragon are reduced or disabled in group play. Pretty straightforward, paragon only adds to solo and/or small group play power. Could either be straight up disabled as soon as you are in a group, or scale down by 25% per other player in the group, leading to no power bonuses once in a full 5 man. Still very rewarding for world quests and farming efficiency, especially for players hunting for legendaries.

I agree that removal of a power gain in group content would be the way to do that, should that remain a reward.
Reducing is not enough in my opinion, as there have been players slated for some tiny percentage increase when they didn't reforge, gem or enchant the "right way".
Remove the impact of that on group play, find other ways to make it appealing.

[Eapoe]

I agree that removal of a power gain in group content would be the way to do that, should that remain a reward.
Reducing is not enough in my opinion, as there have been players slated for some tiny percentage increase when they didn't reforge, gem or enchant the "right way".
Remove the impact of that on group play, find other ways to make it appealing.

That's exactly what I was saying earlier when I said it only benefits the solo playstyle and asked you to read again where I stated that it doesn't work in things like raids, ranked PvP, etc. The only thing where it would remain in affect would be something like mythic+ is the sense of leaderboards (when they happen). It could even be disabled up to a certain point, like if level 15 is the mythic level cache, then it would go into effect on level 16+ for just a ranking system.
The random BG thing could even be tweaked with the diminishing power level to counter premades being even more powerful.
The reward system could also be interesting, where you can get 1 time only rewards in the terms of cosmetics or a mount at the end of each paragon styled season.
The whole point is just something that is perceivably easy to implement, without breaking the game or feeling forced to do, that benefits a longer lifecycle and less of the content drought feeling.

[Toralin]

I hope you guys do realize the paragon system is not unique to Diablo 3...hell, they weren't even the first to come up with it, and if they put it in WoW, it wouldn't be the first time it was in an MMO.

But people can relate to D3, so...

[Army Dreamer]

They are already bringing too much from Diablo into WoW, we don't need a Paragon system.

Pretty much this. Too bad they brought "that fucking loser" from D3 to WoW.

[Glaziola]

I like that in Diablo, would love it on Wow too instead of artifacts.