20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[GiefEpixe]

I still disagree with you. Even by Blizzards statistics that they recently shared, participation in Mythic 20 raiding is about on par with the participation when it used to be 10-25 man.

So the fabricated problem that you (and others) claim that mythic failed lies solely on you and your guild unwilling to adapt. Blizzard gave everyone many months of notice ahead of the release of WoD so you could prepare, and you didn't. Is that a problem of the hardest difficulty being adjusted to be only 20 man? No. Its a problem of people unwilling or unable to adapt.

Something along the lines of the Darwinism effect? Only the strong will survive?

Please point me to said statistics by Blizzard. I'd love to take a closer look.

I've checked the clearing numbers for BRF and TOT on the highest difficulty today and player numbers dropped for those by 75%—while subs only dropped by 22% in the respective timeframe. Most certainly doesn't look like a fabricated problem to me.

Darwinism has nothing to do with not being able or willing to adapt to the new size. Most people simply don't enjoy a bigger raid size, be it for logistical reasons from the leaders'/officers' perspective or social reasons from the member's perspective. In MOP, 90% of the players were raiding 10m on the highest difficulty and only 10% 25m. That clearly shows the preference of the players imo.

[Ferozan]

Success. Much better fights and balance. It should stay, if not, increase back to 25.

5 man Mythic+ are coming to smaller groups.

[GiefEpixe]

1600 guilds x 20 players = 32000 players that killed 13/13 Mythic, the number of players still progressing Mythic might be 10 times or more, and we're not counting Pugs.

Basicly if you're not doing Mythic... you're either bad or on a shit server

Did you compare those numbers to SOO? Otherwise, I don't see the point of your argument really. If 32,000 of whatever how many millions are still playing now is not minisucle, I don't know what is.

While you're at it browsing wowprogress, please also take a look at the numbers for BRF and compare them to TOT and let's discuss the 75% drop there.

[Magnosh]

Yes, in fact, I did run a 25 man guild in WoTLK successfully from Naxx 25 through Heroic 25 LK. It was easy keeping my roster because people liked the culture of my guild, and they enjoyed my raid leading. I also was the main raid lead of a 25 man BC guild, making it to Sunwell in progression.

I'd say your idea of managing a guild is wrong then. You jump through unnecessary hoops because of issues other than just keeping players. Have you taken a look at your core leadership? Have you assessed how well new players / trials are taking to the leadership and culture of your guild? If any of that is out of wack, of course you wont have people staying.

I'm in my guild because I instantly enjoyed the leadership of the guild. They are laid back, easy to get along with, and they were accepting of new players regardless of their gear situation (to a point, now they only recruit full heroic geared / mythic geared players as we are progressing on Mythic Archimonde). I wasn't geared to where the guild was at when I joined, but I was patient and joined the off night raids and such until I got geared and got accepted as a main raider in my guild.

Building a core group that genuinely desires to stay together and progress takes time, and it takes relationship building. I liked the leadership from the beginning, but that doesn't mean I became friends / built a friendship with them immediately, it took time. If you are unwilling to befriend newbies, and invite them to talk in mumble, invite them to do 5 mans with you, invite the trials to do other activities other than just raiding... and if you just stick to your core 5 friends when you do off night stuff, you can kiss your guild goodbye, because I guarantee, people wont want to stay around when the guild leadership is filled with self-absorbed pricks (not saying your guild is, but many are).

What does raiding in Wrath or TBC has to do with the problem at hand? I was talking about the issue with Cross Realm Mythic and then talked about the issues with recruiting to show you that different realms pose different issues on the matter.

Its fantastic how you can predict how my idea of managing a guild is wrong with so little information, can you please tell me the lottery numbers too? I promise I'll share the prize!!! A little more information, first guild broke apart (I was an officer) and was either keep spaming for recruits for Heroic BRF with the same result as until then or realizing it wouldn't work out. That is what I did, realized it was not going to happen and told everyone that were still there that I was going to leave and rebuild starting from Normal BRF instead, if anyone wanted to to follow me to let me know and everyone left the guild went with me, some people that had quitted even came back. I recruited people with LFR item level to start normal BRF and moved up to Heroic that patch.

We lost a core Tank between BRF and HFC as he went to an internship and a Healer to the university. We steadily advanced but we were not 20, we couldn't have 20 players as we were getting no replies. We got stuck in Archimonde Heroic for a while as that fight is a bit harder for a 13 man group than it is for a 20+ group. We got some players coming and going for many different reasons, some we simply didn't like the attitude or were just not reliable. We got lucky at some point and got a 26 man team that was more or less stable we had some progress up to Gorefiend Mythic (our last couple of tries before Christmas was at 34%, so very close to the kill) but during the Christmas break we lost 1 Core Healer and officer, 2 Core DPS due to irl issues, it is not that they left to play on higher progress guilds or better leaded guilds, they had to leave WoW.

After that it went downhill, with your experience leading guilds you must know how frustrating it can get on players that already know how the fight works to see trials/pugs coming on to the group, wiping over and over for them to learn the fight and the next raid they simply not showing and new guys coming in. Then you start seeing players that knew the fight making mistakes because they are getting frustrated.

You can say that some players didn't stay because they didn't liked how I lead the raid but when I get whispers like ''I'm sorry man this is too hard'' and I try to motivate them saying its not that hard and they are doing good so far and in the next minute they ''Disconnect'' It becomes hard to blame myself. Some players are just not up for it they don't want to wipe to learn the fight and those were the kinds of players we were being able to recruit. I tried a lot this expansion, from talking to other guilds asking if they were raiding and if they would like to get back to raid with us even on alts so they don't have to lose their guild/home, etc. Got replies like ''we just got 20 man we are fine for mythic now'', ofc they weren't but who was I to tell them they were being naive? Some simply didn't wanted to raid anymore.

I don't need guild leadership advices, I know how my players were, I know how much they wanted me keep pushing no mater if we had 17 or 18 raiders each night instead of 20. No matter if instead of downing Gorefiend we were wiping on Council because the pug healers couldn't handle dispells. I'm not a self-absorbed prick, I know I might have made mistakes along the way, but I also could see the sadness when I told my players to go find another guild to raid because I was closing doors as it was unbearable and I was getting too much burned but now I'm happy as most of them are in 12/13 Mythic Guilds (there are only 6 guilds with 13/13 now).

But all this information is worth 0 for this topic.

I don't feel self entitled to get instantly a group to play mythic. I've worked hard to create one, I've spend more time thinking how to keep things alive how to keep players interested than anything else. Me and my officers spend countless hours trying to recruit players for Mythic with no success, some of us reroled to serve the greater good but still was not enough as the server was unable to provide more players. Is this my fault for the server not having more players? Is my leadership that made players on other guilds leave WoW?

I know some players left because they wanted higher progress or faster progress, that is understandable. I also know we might have lost players due to hard poaching, I know some players that left were there to gearup and then leave. But I also know when players left because they had irl issues and that is no ones fault. I also know that I lost some players due to how things worked in the guild. But in the end summing it up we lost more players due to lack/lost of interest in Mythic than anything else.

What I blame Blizzard for is for doing nothing, they don't merge servers, they don't give an option for players that want some challenge. They simply ignore.

[Dukenukem]

In MOP, 90% of the players were raiding 10m on the highest difficulty and only 10% 25m. That clearly shows the preference of the players imo.

no, it only shows lazyness of leaders to form bigger groups and people to participate in them. When you have 10 people you have 2,5x less people who can fail >> more fails on progression (which can more or less affect the raid performance, not all fails on 25 were fatal as much as on 10). Also it took 3x-5x more time to form 25 than 10.

[Deleted]

While I've enjoyed it a lot when I've been able to raid mythic, the several guilds I've done mythic with so far have all disbanded or went on early breaks till Legion simply because it is difficult to keep a steady 20 man roster going.

[GiefEpixe]

no, it only shows lazyness of leaders to form bigger groups and people to participate in them. When you have 10 people you have 2,5x less people who can fail >> more fails on progression (which can more or less affect the raid performance, not all fails on 25 were fatal as much as on 10). Also it took 3x-5x more time to form 25 than 10.

You're contradicting your own argument by stating that fails at 25m weren't punished as hard as on 10m. Can't really follow your reasoning here.

On your second point: So the fact that it takes longer to set up a bigger group makes it somehow more worth striving for? What's so great about time spent on logistics like that without even playing the actual game? Boggles my mind.

[Lilija]

From the point of former 25man raiding it was huge success. Top level raiding can't do with different sizes as previous expantions has shown. I understand for some guilds it might have been an issue to transfer into 20man but in the long run raiding scene is slowly rebuilding itself after the armagedon that hit it during Cataclysm.

[Riistov]

Or again, the fact that 10m raiding was largely what was keeping the raid scenes alive on lower population servers. Forcing everyone to suddenly merge and upscale to continue just resulted in a lot of server transfers to servers like Mal'ganis, Stormrage, etc.

It's also going to turn around and bite us come Legion launch.

Hello 3 hour queues.

[Glorious Leader]

Very few changes to the game are only a good idea

Yea no this is some po mo bs. Instead of saying this was fucking terrible (and many decisions are) it becomes well this was bad depending on your pov. Well fuck that. Bad decisions are awful period.

[Kuntantee]

Casual guilds have always had the opportunity to run mythic. My guild for example only raids 2 days a week 3 hours a night, and we are on Mythic Archimonde right now. So dont give me that BS about this change killed casual guilds because it didn't, if anything casual guilds killed themselves because of their pride / entitlement issues. "Oh i can't raid the hardest difficulty on 10 man, im not even going to try to recruit a few more to get to 20". "oh everything should be made easy for me in terms of logistics and mechanics, it should all be handed to me on a silver platter"

20 man mythic in my opinion has been the best compromise between the 10-25 man debate, and it solves a lot of problems with mechanics changing / scaling from lesser difficulties to the hardest difficulty. Blizzard accomplished their goal.

I disagree with this pile of horse shit you just spewed.

Couldn't say better myself.


- - - Updated - - -

They've been doing this for awhile now at least since Cataclysm. The developers make changes that at the very least prove to be divisive or unpopular with the playerbase and they do largely as a means of trying to make development life easier., either cheaper or quicker or in some way more beneficial for them as developers at the expense of players. They manage to get SOME of the community on board so it starts wow civil war.

Indeed. Overwhelming majority of design choices they make aims to make development process easier. The worst part is some people actually think that these particular decisions are made in order to enhance gameplay. This situation leads me to believe that "WoW has biggest development team ever" is just a bullshit.

[Mikael123]

Success.
No matter how Blizzard tried to balance 10 vs 25, most players chose the path of least resistance and did 10 man. The players chose 10 not because it was more fun, but because it was easier to handle. So Blizzard had to settle for 1 raid size, and 20 man strikes a good balance. Smaller raid group and raiding loses some of its epicness factor. Bigger raid group and it becomes harder to lead the raid.

[Cebel]

Players shouldn't need to pay a server transfer fee due to Blizzard's ineptitude in dealing with server populations. Easier thing is to not pay at all and either suffer on a shit server or simply not bother with the game at all.

I mean i dont thing "suffering" is easier.

If you enjoy the game and want to play on a more populated realm pay the fee like the rest of us.

If you enjoy the game and dont want to play on a more populated realm, dont pay the fee and dont bitch when your guild dies cause they cant recruit on a shit realm.

I also never said players should NEED to, but thats not my decision. I already stated blizzard should do something about it, but they havent, and the option is there to get off that realm if need be. Dont bitch your guild died when you didnt do everything you could to save it.

[Spotnick]

Actually it's blizzards fault for not merging realms by now. Why the fuck is it a good idea to have as many realms as we had when the population was 12 million, now that we have like 3 million? Dumb de dumb dumb dumb.

There were 11 million people playing when Highmaul opened.

Seeing how fun logging queues were, you probably were very happy THEN to be on a low population server.

[Kazgrel]

I mean i dont thing "suffering" is easier.

If you enjoy the game and want to play on a more populated realm pay the fee like the rest of us.

If you enjoy the game and dont want to play on a more populated realm, dont pay the fee and dont bitch when your guild dies cause they cant recruit on a shit realm.

I also never said players should NEED to, but thats not my decision. I already stated blizzard should do something about it, but they havent, and the option is there to get off that realm if need be. Dont bitch your guild died when you didnt do everything you could to save it.

I actually did move to a higher pop server right before WoD launch. Had I to do it all over again, I wouldn't have made the move (because I moved a full army of 11 characters), but then again, had I known what I know now, I would've never bought WoD to begin with, but that's another can of worms.

[Magnosh]

If you enjoy the game and want to play on a more populated realm pay the fee like the rest of us.

I payed to move to my server during Cataclysm because my old server was dead now this server is dead, why should I pay more than others for the same content?

[Viradiance]

Success. I think 10-man as a viable route to the most challenging endgame was far too easy.

[Cebel]

I payed to move to my server during Cataclysm because my old server was dead now this server is dead, why should I pay more than others for the same content?

So you paid to move from 1 guild that didnt do what was necessary, just to go to another guild that wouldnt do whats necessary.

If you're so opposed to paying to transfer ( which btw if you're gonna transfer, research the server and make sure its not shit), recruit people from other servers.

My current guild is on Drenden? You ever heard of it? Me either... You know why I joined them? They're good and have been around a long time. If your guild is good, the server doesnt matter, people will pay to come.

[Magnosh]

So you paid to move from 1 guild that didnt do what was necessary, just to go to another guild that wouldnt do whats necessary.

If you're so opposed to paying to transfer ( which btw if you're gonna transfer, research the server and make sure its not shit), recruit people from other servers.

My current guild is on Drenden? You ever heard of it? Me either... You know why I joined them? They're good and have been around a long time. If your guild is good, the server doesnt matter, people will pay to come.

Not sure if you didn't understood what I said or if its my english that is worst than I thought....

Back then I didn't move for a guild, I moved from Burning Blade because it was getting filled with some foreign players (think the trade chat became Polish, but I'm honestly not sure it was Polish), so I moved to Grim Batol which had an healthy population, things changed, you can't predict from Cataclysm to WoD that most of a server population would crumble.

I'm opposed to wasting more money on this game after what we already pay both monthly and for expansion. And plus its not just moving 1 char, it would be moving at least 3 different ones which I play actively.

Because you did it doesn't mean everyone will nor that it is common practice, unless your guild is on the top 200 World or something. Server matters.

[Beet]

There were 11 million people playing when Highmaul opened.

Seeing how fun logging queues were, you probably were very happy THEN to be on a low population server.

That was yet again Blizzards fault. There were 11 million when Cata launched too yet no one talks about the horrors of its launch. And no I was on Illidan one of the highest pop servers. Because I actually invested money to move since Blizzard thinks having dead servers every day of the year except on expac launch days is a good idea.