20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Raiju]

Eh, I remember the stack strategy for mythic tectus had people with mists run away from the group so it would be a non-issue, but whatever.

It's almost as if this is a melee issue and not a ranged one

Not to mention strategies evolved over time. F.ex. the common butcher strategy of hunter cheesing wasn't that common at all for first few weeks.

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Well even if that was the case shouldn't your positioning you still being able to see the targets take care of potential issues with the mist ? I mean difficulties with camera settings and invisible mist sounds more like a not particularly convincing excuse.

Blizzard evidently disagreed?

[kary]

It's almost as if this is a melee issue and not a ranged one

Not to mention strategies evolved over time. F.ex. the common butcher strategy of hunter cheesing wasn't that common at all for first few weeks.

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Blizzard evidently disagreed?

It's been over a year, does he target melee with the smoke? All my recollection points to no, but I could be wrong.
I def do not remember the cloud ever being in melee with the strat we used, though.

Periodically, Tectus will target randomly-chosen ranged DPS or healers with Crystalline Barrage.

yeah, position better. Totally a ranged mechanic. If you placed the ranged at a 90 degree angle perpendicular to the tank and melee playing grabass, it would fly out and not bother the melee at all. If you have people all loosey goosey it might be an issue, yeah, but stacking makes that mechanic ranged only (as it was intended)

[Raiju]

The cloud starts from him, it targets ranged - even when you start running out the first will place in melee behind curving around to the side.

You won't have seen the cloud because it was invisible under the sandpiles, and you likely weren't paying attention later (particularly with how fast the fight is and how hectic it is at the end)

[kary]

The cloud starts from him, it targets ranged - even when you start running out the first will place in melee behind curving around to the side.

You won't have seen the cloud because it was invisible under the sandpiles, and you likely weren't paying attention later (particularly with how fast the fight is and how hectic it is at the end)

If you did it correctly, you would not have to move till the last phase, which is FFA after the first rise, mountains.
Basically it still sounds like a pebcak issue, not a mechanic issue.

And I raided on both melee and ranged (tanked too). The smoke was never an issue.

[Raiju]

If you had the clouds you moved out.. You stated that yourself earlier too.

You can go "oh this BUG never affected me" but it really doesn't matter. It means nothing at all, because it was a bug. It was unintended and fixed. It gave different groups different amounts of difficulty, by it's nature of being unintended.

[kary]

http://imgur.com/Qq8daHj

so you can visualize it. flip directions if necessary.

If you could see the smoke or not wouldn't be an issue if melee were where they were supposed to be.



100% sure it's a pebcak issue.

[Raiju]

It's almost like I explained this multiple posts ago and it went right over your head. I don't know why I even try.

[kary]

Sure you did. And I explained that with proper positioning it would never hit the melee. Which was my point. That if people knew wtf to do and stood where they were supposed to... there would be no issue! Yes I understand telegraphs not showing up is a bug and does need to be fixed, it wasn't something that would hinder any competent group.

[reasonstolike]

I'd say probably a success

[Raiju]

It would hinder anyone that wasn't spoonfed tactics to them, as it's trial and error working out where the dust spawns etc before you get there (directly behind the boss, in the middle, etc has to be ruled out).

People may not be willing to spend hours wiping on a buggy boss. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

[kary]

It would hinder anyone that wasn't spoonfed tactics to them, as it's trial and error working out where the dust spawns etc before you get there (directly behind the boss, in the middle, etc has to be ruled out).

People may not be willing to spend hours wiping on a buggy boss. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Does the average person play with sct or something? like do people not see ticking damage and just move?
I must be playing in some alternate universe.

Anyway whatever, I guess this wouldve been some sort of insurmountable wall for the beer league players.

[Raiju]

Does the average person play with sct or something? like do people not see ticking damage and just move?
I must be playing in some alternate universe.

Anyway whatever, I guess this wouldve been some sort of insurmountable wall for the beer league players.

"I'm taking damage from something invisible, this is frustrating - in other words not fun."

Figuring out a bug and working around it isn't fun. It feels like you're doing the devs work for them and it's an obstacle to the encounter itself.

I've made no statement about being unable to kill it, merely appreciating that bugged encounters are NOT enjoyable. You seem to be despite stating you accept it - unable to be ok with that others may not accept that subpar quality. You keep feeling the need to bring skill or competence into it to justify yourself.

[Deleted]

why you talk about tectus? lol, didnt want to make offtopic but there are many bosses with same problems. and by mist and below floor fire i actually ment some other bosses, some of them in SoO, Tot etc. I wanted to point out that it is frustrating when gameplay is not IN the game but related to game like social aspects and computer graphics is more important than encounter itself.

[kary]

"I'm taking damage from something invisible, this is frustrating - in other words not fun."

Figuring out a bug and working around it isn't fun. It feels like you're doing the devs work for them and it's an obstacle to the encounter itself.

I've made no statement about being unable to kill it, merely appreciating that bugged encounters are NOT enjoyable. You seem to be despite stating you accept it - unable to be ok with that others may not accept that subpar quality.

It's a bug in software.
Do you know how many bugs there are in software? I'm a realist. No software has ever launched without bugs.
But do you know what I do though? I adapt.
Hell, my guild killed mimiron during the first week bugs and it was probably the greatest feeling ever. And that was a real bug, a insta wipe bug.

Subpar quality? Hell, I'd think most of the people who come here have unreasonable expectations regarding how software performs in the real world.

[Raiju]

I accept that, you accept that - the majority of customers do NOT accept that. If you're a realist you surely know that already. Software having bugs does not stop every customer/client ever expecting none, even from beta.

[Saracens]

http://imgur.com/Qq8daHj

so you can visualize it. flip directions if necessary.

If you could see the smoke or not wouldn't be an issue if melee were where they were supposed to be.



100% sure it's a pebcak issue.

PEBCAK is hands down the best throwback I've seen on this forum in a while. Thank you.

[Deleted]

Nowhere have I ever said that 25M was superior. I mean, fuck, I was a 10M Heroic raider for most of MoP. I often get accused of 25M bias since I favor WoD's larger raid size but I've also argued why it's necessary ad infinitum as well. Class representation matters in raids and it's a core tenant held by the developers. No amount of sappy, heartfelt "Blizzard killed my super tight-knit 10M Heroic guild and now I hate the world because I can't replicate that experience in the live game anymore " bullshit stories are going to change this fact.

As for logistics: That's something you and I will never agree on but I don't think it's fair to completely discount my opinion on this subject simply because more people would prefer logistics not to be a part of the Mythic raiding equation. You and I have fundamentally different viewpoints on what makes a raid enjoyable. The difference is your viewpoint is generally more supported by players and my viewpoint is generally more supported by the developers themselves. Label me a shill if you'd like, but I don't think it'll be changing any time soon.

Was the 20 man mythics not brought in to balance encounters better? We still have the problem of stacking classes for encounters (see Xhul and Manny as the best examples). Was this not meant to help prevent that?

[kary]

Was the 20 man mythics not brought in to balance encounters better? We still have the problem of stacking classes for encounters (see Xhul and Manny as the best examples). Was this not meant to help prevent that?

As long as classes are balanced around flavour like burst or sustained, this would always happen. It's actually impossible to fix that. You'll get less of it during progression, but during farm and extended tiers, you can't stop it from happening. I vaguely remember there being a 25+ mage on ragnaros kill video.

[Relapses]

Was the 20 man mythics not brought in to balance encounters better? We still have the problem of stacking classes for encounters (see Xhul and Manny as the best examples). Was this not meant to help prevent that?

Not necessarily. When I say class representation, I mean things like a 20M Mythic roster theoretically having more potential class slots than a 10M. Whereas in 10M you might feel obligated to bring only a certain comp (or that having a certain comp makes encounters far more/less trivial), in 20M the devs can design around a certain number of players of certain classes being present. Manny and Xhul are pretty good examples since they're both much easier with DKs and it's not a stretch to say most 20M guilds have at least one DK on the roster. (That's far less likely in smaller raid groups and therefore they'd have to tune encounters around the possibility of a DK not being present.) In BRF, Blast Furnace was actually impossible without at least one Priest for MC.

Whether this design is implicitly better than a dual raid hierarchy is another question. I'm often attacked for my position here since I personally prefer it. But there's room for argument that raids weren't exactly worse when both 10s and 25s existed. It's mostly personal preference there but I think that a lot of the encounters I've enjoyed in WoD would have been far less enjoyable had Blizzard decided to design them around Cata/MoP's philosophy.

[cFortyfive]

100% sure it's a pebcak issue.

Certainly. Seemingly not always occurring bug being fixed by something as simple as taking 10 minutes to figure out some positioning which is probably half of every wow encounter doesn't exactly strike me as encounter defining.

why you talk about tectus? lol, didnt want to make offtopic but there are many bosses with same problems. and by mist and below floor fire i actually ment some other bosses, some of them in SoO, Tot etc.

Could you give a couple examples since I can't come with game breaking issues obviously from the perspective of someone who wasn't world first on any encounter. The durumu maze was a bit hard to spot allegedly depending on setting and hardware but as somebody striving to handle the toughest pve content group content a game has to offer you should be able to realize when you are taking damage.

We still have the problem of stacking classes for encounters (see Xhul and Manny as the best examples). Was this not meant to help prevent that?

Not sure why you'd expect that. Even 25m raids didn't have many spots you'd want to give away to bad specs and now you have even less room for that.