LFR: Success or Failure?

[Bullettime]

Yeah, I made the difference a page or so back, from the casuals of Vanilla and BC that had a good WoW experience in their own rhythm and focused more on other aspects of the game such as farming, AH, reps, making gold, dungeons and so on, compared to MoP/WoD casuals. Now, these ones complain, and they complain very vocally. Quite a few forums are filled with complaints about LFR not rewarding them enough, and LFR topics can typically achieve dozens of pages of going back and forth without anybody giving up any ground and without any compromises in sight.

Big difference between modern casual players and those we had back in Vanilla. Those were damn happy with the game and understood their position in the food chain.

Food chain? The casual players are the ones who fund the game's existence, and this is coming from a hardcore raider. I know we're a dwindling minority.

But to be fair, LFR this expansion WAS too unrewarding. MoP's system could be argued to be too rewarding but the current model is fucking useless to do except to work on your legendary., which is one of the reasons for the queue times being significantly longer than Siege. And given there's been next to zero compelling or rewarding outside of raid content, LFR basically has be rewarding. MoP at least had daily rep gear, Valor, multiple weekly loot pinatas, and Timeless Isle for things to do and ways to get gear.

There's valid complaints from casual players bitching about LFR when it's the only thing in the game worth a fuck to do and there's not even rewards for doing it.

[Gilgameshh]

Food chain? The casual players are the ones who fund the game's existence, and this is coming from a hardcore raider. I know we're a dwindling minority.

But to be fair, LFR this expansion WAS too unrewarding. MoP's system could be argued to be too rewarding but the current model is fucking useless to do except to work on your legendary., which is one of the reasons for the queue times being significantly longer than Siege. And given there's been next to zero compelling or rewarding outside of raid content, LFR basically has be rewarding. MoP at least had daily rep gear, Valor, multiple weekly loot pinatas, and Timeless Isle for things to do and ways to get gear.

There's valid complaints from casual players bitching about LFR when it's the only thing in the game worth a fuck to do and there's not even rewards for doing it.

This LFR expansion was absolutely too rewarding. If content is easier to complete than a normal dungeon, should it award gear better than a heroic dungeon? What's the logic behind that? And that's just talking about the first tier of LFR. It's not just LFR that's the problem here, though; honor gear right now offers ilvl 700 loot. Mythic BRF ilvl loot for honor gear? And then we have the AH that's littered with raiding/crafting epics, the BMAH... it's a little ridiculous to me.

So what's the problem? The problem is that every piece of content before the current tier's content is obsolete and irrelevant. Who the hell runs dungeons for progression? Is Mythic+ supposed to solve that when LFR is likely going to just make the gear irrelevant by offering tier loot (talking about the average player here)? And who the hell is going to run older raids to advance themselves when they can run LFR to get better loot for almost no effort? Is LFR just meant to be the thing Blizzard throws at casuals and calls end-game to appease them?

LFR as a story mode would be fine. When we're talking about how high/low the ilvl of gear has to be for people to play it, doesn't that kinda mean people don't want to do the content for any other reason than easy epics? Sure, if LFR gear actually helped you progress your main I would think ilvl would be an issue, but what progression is left for the average non-raider after they've decked themselves out in those easily obtained epics?

I'd rather see Blizzard remove the story driven aspects from completely so that people don't feel the need to experience them. Not being able to see the story throughout the expansion because you don't have the time/skill is a very valid and reasonable complaint to make. Having four difficulties of raiding and calling it a day for content creation is not something I'm okay with moving forward, but that's what we're seeing again in Legion. Putting a greater rift design on dungeons and calling it a day for content creation is not something I'm okay with, either.

I believe the main reason we have these multiple difficulties is because Blizzard cannot keep up with content creation/doesn't want to invest in it. If there was a ton of stuff to do from the beginning of the expansion, we wouldn't need to have LFR for casuals. We wouldn't need to have Mythic+ to rerun the same ten dungeons a million times. Everyone would have so much to do that they wouldn't ever dream of being able to complete it all. That's what I felt like in vanilla/TBC, and because of that I didn't care where the hell my $15 a month was going (nor did I ever think about it) because I felt like I was getting the best deal of all time for a video game, regardless. There were times when I only raided, there were times when I only PvP'ed, but throughout it all I couldn't give a damn because for $15 a month I was enjoying my favorite game of all time with my friends. Now, for that same $15 a month, I'm getting very little content with multiple difficulties.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

NOW WITHIN THE RAIDING FRAMEWORK (because the developers are ultimately too timid, to beholden to raiders, or just don't give a shit to change it up enough) lfr justifies the existence of raiding and is raiding as they have called it. It should have tier and trinkets and weapons and all that.

I honestly don't care if LFR supplies good rewards. I win either way with that hands down. If your bad your bad. Even if I dress someone up in mythic gear it will be apparent pretty quickly who knows what's going on. But at least when I random que with that Mage that does nothing but spams ice lance its at least a little more productive in moving things along.

Problem with your argument is that Blizzard just makes a game. Players choose to play a game. This isn't a political party. It isn't managing citizens in a nation. Raiding has always been a smaller percentage of players participating in it with a larger resource dump cap. Tell me when that really wasn't the case outside of maybe the first raid.. maybe two.. mostly because it was something like their work in progress project? Not to say things in raiding don't filter down. Models, art assets, mechanics, gameplay, and style all flow outward from it to the rest of the game. But it has always been that way. LFR just gave it to more people, which again, I am totally fine with. But Blizzard should just focus on making the game they want WoW to be. Then letting those people play the game it ends up being. Or not playing it. Even at WoWs peek it had what 12 million players in a world of billions? It would be like me wanting a thrilling single player campaign with a deep story when I bought Overwatch and complaining that all I got was a multiplayer first person shooter. Then on top of it having the nerve to pester and attack Blizzard endlessly for not providing the single player experience I so desired. That is just tough shit buddy. I bought the game so that's the game I get to play. If they add it later, don't add it, or add it and then take it away then that is fucking life. If it makes me not like the game I simply uninstall. I go play with my kid, my dog, tell the wife she is pretty, or for fucks sake just play another game. Life will go on for me.

Will life go on for you though. I have my legit worries about that. You seem very defensive for something you claim is so self explaining. So condencending for someone that just wants to make everything better for the most of us. But you end up just coming across as an asshole that is out to ruin people's fun because you aren't having it. If you want other parts of the game to be better I support you a 100%. Me too. But if it's cost is I have to shit on others than no thanks. That turns me into a true asshole.

[Deadite]

SWG was the best time I've ever had playing an MMO, it was a world of constant adventure despite the numerous bugs and ludicrous class-balance. I have fond memories of being nothing more than a simple doctor handing out buffs in Corellia starport.

While i agree the game was easily one of the best mmos to date i have to say that my Master Doctor dropping his droid at the starport was one of the most stressful things i have ever done in a mmo! I was bombarded with whispers and people /tipping me. When you have 30 people all wanting different stats boosted and wanting it now.... *shudders*

[Deleted]

More people seeing a raid meaning the development costs are more justifiable is a flawed way of looking at it.

First of all, seeing a raid for the first time in LFR is a watered down experience compared to going in there with your guild at a challenging level, as part of a progression path. If 5 million people on average have a 4/10 fun experience when raids are accessible to all, compared to 2.5 million people having a 8/10 fun experience, does more equal better?

Second of all, a raid being in the game but not yet seen makes the world feel bigger, more dangerous and mysterious. A raid can actually add something to the game as a player even though they haven't been in it. It keeps people playing when there is unexplored content.

Third of all, the special snowflake factor is a huge draw for players. Equality doesn't work in an MMO.

[Osmeric]

Third of all, the special snowflake factor is a huge draw for players. Equality doesn't work in an MMO.

This is the hardcore narrative, and it's pretty much 180 degrees opposite from the truth.

[Glorious Leader]

I honestly don't care if LFR supplies good rewards. I win either way with that hands down. If your bad your bad. Even if I dress someone up in mythic gear it will be apparent pretty quickly who knows what's going on. But at least when I random que with that Mage that does nothing but spams ice lance its at least a little more productive in moving things along.

Problem with your argument is that Blizzard just makes a game. Players choose to play a game. This isn't a political party. It isn't managing citizens in a nation. Raiding has always been a smaller percentage of players participating in it with a larger resource dump cap. Tell me when that really wasn't the case outside of maybe the first raid.. maybe two.. mostly because it was something like their work in progress project? Not to say things in raiding don't filter down. Models, art assets, mechanics, gameplay, and style all flow outward from it to the rest of the game. But it has always been that way. LFR just gave it to more people, which again, I am totally fine with. But Blizzard should just focus on making the game they want WoW to be. Then letting those people play the game it ends up being. Or not playing it. Even at WoWs peek it had what 12 million players in a world of billions? It would be like me wanting a thrilling single player campaign with a deep story when I bought Overwatch and complaining that all I got was a multiplayer first person shooter. Then on top of it having the nerve to pester and attack Blizzard endlessly for not providing the single player experience I so desired. That is just tough shit buddy. I bought the game so that's the game I get to play. If they add it later, don't add it, or add it and then take it away then that is fucking life. If it makes me not like the game I simply uninstall. I go play with my kid, my dog, tell the wife she is pretty, or for fucks sake just play another game. Life will go on for me.

Will life go on for you though. I have my legit worries about that. You seem very defensive for something you claim is so self explaining. So condencending for someone that just wants to make everything better for the most of us. But you end up just coming across as an asshole that is out to ruin people's fun because you aren't having it. If you want other parts of the game to be better I support you a 100%. Me too. But if it's cost is I have to shit on others than no thanks. That turns me into a true asshole.

This entire post is condescending. Your hypocrisy is never ending.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

This entire post is condescending. Your hypocrisy is never ending.

Sad thing is I support your argument about LFR gear. I think you saying that's condescending says wonders about your stance. Your blind arguement never ends. But sure, I can agree I am being a bit condescending. But it is hard not to be when the person your addressing only communicates in such a fashion. AKA you.

[Violetti]

In mop it was ok, it felt like a very easy raid mode made for mostly casuals. It was still ok for raiders alts since it dropped set pieces and trinkets and didnt force you to invest 3hours on multiple characters.

wod-lfr is like watching a video

[Deleted]

This is the hardcore narrative, and it's pretty much 180 degrees opposite from the truth.

i disagree.

It is going against human nature.

[Osmeric]

i disagree.

It is going against human nature.

It's human nature to enjoy content you don't do?

Absurd.

What you are engaging in is wishful thinking that SOMEHOW the game catering to a minority is good for the majority. THIS is human nature, to try to rationalize a position of privilege as somehow being right and proper.

[Deleted]

It's human nature to enjoy content you don't do?

Absurd.

What you are engaging in is wishful thinking that SOMEHOW the game catering to a minority is good for the majority. THIS is human nature, to try to rationalize a position of privilege as somehow being right and proper.

Out of my initial post, you disagreed with the snowflake factor, saying it is not true.

If you don't think Humans strive to be better than others, have better things, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Velerios]

Blizzard did already too much for the hardcore-players in WoD by removing Sets from LFR. And we now have 3-4 million subs. Heck, even through this is only a minor issue why i quit, but at least there would be a carrot on the stick and i might have subbed for another month or two.

So no, making some people special snowflakes DOES NOT WORK. And for all: It worked in WotLK and we had sub-peak. That's not because something was inaccessible. It was because WoW was during WotLK THE MOST CASUAL MMO ON THE MARKET. Also it still was very good compared to now after blizzard listened to all those: make raiders better and do more for them in the wotlk-section and what did we get: Cataclysm.

Blizzard should finally quit to listen to these hardcore-raiders like they did for WoD and carry more for people who carry this game, so the majority of the folk who does not raid except lfr. But hey, better listen to them, 100.000 subs seems also a very good sub number

Also why do i bother to post in a Jaylock-Thread again?

[Jerichofr]

Out of my initial post, you disagreed with the snowflake factor, saying it is not true.

If you don't think Humans strive to be better than others, have better things, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't care about being "better than others". I only care about making sure that my family & I can live comfortably, and have what we need. Beyond that, I don't care what you have, or what my neighbor has.

That knocks down your little fallacy.

Of course there are people that base their self-worth on what they can have that others don't. But, they need psychological help.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't care about being "better than others". I only care about making sure that my family & I can live comfortably, and have what we need. Beyond that, I don't care what you have, or what my neighbor has.

That knocks down your little fallacy.

Of course there are people that base their self-worth on what they can have that others don't. But, they need psychological help.

They are sociopaths and their behavior in game is proof of this. They should never be designed around rather they should seek therapeutic helpm

[Deleted]

More people seeing a raid meaning the development costs are more justifiable is a flawed way of looking at it.

First of all, seeing a raid for the first time in LFR is a watered down experience compared to going in there with your guild at a challenging level, as part of a progression path. If 5 million people on average have a 4/10 fun experience when raids are accessible to all, compared to 2.5 million people having a 8/10 fun experience, does more equal better?

It's not flawed at all: the raids are still designed for the actual audience (that is: the lead developers and the heroic/mythic raiding community).

The LFR version is there merely to placate the masses who would otherwise go to the forums to complain. Either about not being able to see the story, or, and more importantly, to question Blizzard's questionable development priorities.

That worked for a while, but then with Warlords they went all in on this dubious model. With predictable results: millions left, people complain about a lack of max level content (given the LFR iLevel this is hardly a surprise), and the same old small minority says that 'at least the raids were cool'.

Second of all, a raid being in the game but not yet seen makes the world feel bigger, more dangerous and mysterious. A raid can actually add something to the game as a player even though they haven't been in it. It keeps people playing when there is unexplored content.

Absolutely agree with that.

Third of all, the special snowflake factor is a huge draw for players. Equality doesn't work in an MMO.

It is most certainly a draw for players, but the players have also figured out that complaining works. Complain long enough and Blizzard will open up everything to everybody. Everybody gets Al'Ar! Everybody gets a Legendary item! The predictable result being that all these things that were special are no longer special, and people complain once more about there being no content.

[judgementofantonidas]

failure. .

[Pandragon]

well lets see. LFR was created so people who werent good enough to do raids, or who are too busy to pug/get a guild, could see the raid content...so its a success.

[Bullettime]

well lets see. LFR was created so people who werent good enough to do raids, or who are too busy to pug/get a guild, could see the raid content...so its a success.

Actually it was created, admittedly, so Blizzard could justify the budget that went into making large scale epic raids. Otherwise, raids were going to be cut significantly in size to better reflect the amount of players that would be experiencing the content and developer attention would be placed into other areas of the game.

Casuals were NOT on the boards complaining about raid accessibility until Cataclysm where Blizzard started axing compelling world and dungeon content in favor of making raids a greater focus, but the raids were very restrictive.

Blizzard, being a lot of raiders themselves, chose to make raiding more accessible and the primary focus of endgame content. They admitted this shit years ago.

If LFR were to be removed, raid scales would be cut down and there would be more focus on things like dungeon and world content. It could be argued which is the better model.

[Perkunas]

Actually it was created, admittedly, so Blizzard could justify the budget that went into making large scale epic raids. Otherwise, raids were going to be cut significantly in size to better reflect the amount of players that would be experiencing the content and developer attention would be placed into other areas of the game.

Casuals were NOT on the boards complaining about raid accessibility until Cataclysm where Blizzard started axing compelling world and dungeon content in favor of making raids a greater focus, but the raids were very restrictive.

Blizzard, being a lot of raiders themselves, chose to make raiding more accessible and the primary focus of endgame content. They admitted this shit years ago.

If LFR were to be removed, raid scales would be cut down and there would be more focus on things like dungeon and world content. It could be argued which is the better model.

They should refocus from raids. Raiding should not be the end game for everybody and there are many things I like about Legion where they are shifting the focus of end game. The Mythic Dungeon system, the world bounty quests, etc. I'm hoping people remember that there are things to do beyond raiding and that just going out into the world with a group of friends and killing a rare spawn or sacking a horde camp and killing the other faction is in fact fun too.