LFR: Success or Failure?

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

There have been 0 valid points.

"It's exclusive" - it's not, by definition. No, your mental perception of that word is wrong, go actually look at the definition.
"I don't have time" - LFR takes more time and more effort.
"I don't want to raid" - why the fuck are you even doing LFR?
"I want to see the content" - normal is for you.



No, the raiding community has been shrinking slower than every other segment of the game's population. Please at least sometime in your life say something that's factually correct.



They didn't do that. We just had no content in WoD. It was just a time-gated Facebook game (much like standing around waiting for world quests is, as much as people want to claim it's "good", it's really just the same thing as the Garrison missions).

The problem is that there used to be stuff to do the whole expansion. Stuff stayed relevant, the old raids were still important. In WoD for example, did you have any reason to run HM or BRF or do dungeons once Tanaan game out and HFC opened? You could get full Tanaan gear in under a week and be in HFC normal gear the next week. Blizzard needs to actually put tons of content in the game that isn't raid content and stop trivializing it within 6 months of release. They also continue to push changes that punish alt play, and that's replayability that's lost.

LFR was lost content because you were expected to do it once they made it "fully accessible to everyone, including your grandmother". Garrisons were lost content. No more alts is lost content. Trivialized content in the same expansion is lost content.

Modern expansions have nothing to do in them, and that's Blizzard's main problem. That's why WoD was such a failure. It's a lesson they haven't learned anything from, and it's why you're all going to hate Legion. Get hyped, because WoD was hyped as fuck before it came out, too.



So you run with a guild. There are thousands of them. We even have xrealm stuff now so you can like go to any of them. You don't have to LFG or join some "toxic pug". This is like bottom tier level effort stuff. Like whatever you had to do to pay $60 + $15/mo to play this game is probably more effort than tagging along with a guild run.

They made changes to looking for raid. So, it was less rewarding and players would try higher difficulties this didn't workout. They had a lack content outside of raiding because they had to train new employees. Legion on the other hand has a ton of content to do outside of raiding. Looking for raid isn't a lose, if you wouldn't have raided without it. Warlords lacked content and we had a million times more things to do in Mist compared to warlords.

You can run older raids for mounts, and vanity items. Those older raids are ran in looking for raid for people who are gearing up. We used to have a reason to rerun dungeon it was called valor points and valor point rewards but we got no replacement. We do need more reason to run older raids outside of mounts but people do run older raids through looking for raid or they pug for old achievements and mounts.

[Osmeric]

More to the point it's just simple logic. If he's in favor of exclusive content then he is in favor of content that excludes others. To sit their and then say it's not exclusive means he's either not in favor of exclusive content or he thinks even less people should raid....

He's interested in content that is nominally inclusive (that is, anyone can zone in) but de facto exclusive (in that few will end up willing or able to do it).

(It's like saying being the set of NFL football players is not exclusive, since anyone can in principle play football.)

A bullshit argument is that the former allows one to ignore the ill effects of the latter.

[Sansnom]

No, the argument is rather simple: it's not exclusive. Anyone of moderate intelligence (85+ IQ) who puts in the effort can easily do normal/heroic content and is highly likely capable of clearing mythic before nerfs.

Normal is trivial even for the middle bad percentiles of players (20-60%).

It is, to an extent. Because players determines who are invited into their raid groups. That itself moves it to the exclusive side because the invitee needs to meet the requirements of the inviter. This is generally acceptable because the inviter needs to ensure their group has the highest chance of successful, which means the better, experienced, etc players are preferred over the inexperience players.

LFR entrance requirements is set by Blizzard, which is impartial, unbias and remains constant throughout the tier.

LFR doesn't make raiding more accessible. You're watching a movie, and most people who don't do a higher difficulty only do LFR a few times during a 2 year expansion. Your local raiders in there killing bosses on Tuesday do that because they like raiding, not because the content is accessible and they got to see it and now they're not going back.

Yes it does, partly due to the above and partly due to the playstyle. Players like seems have this impression that anyone who is interested in raider plays like them. They do not.

It has been mentioned before that some players have irregular and interruptable playtime. The regular organized raid groups expects members to remain for the duration of the raid, which may have a minimum of 2hrs uninterrupted. Not everyone can commit to that.

But really, the correct solution here is one that Blizzard doesn't want to hear, and the "zomg u can't has my LFR" crowd around here refuses to hear: LFR is just a stand-in for the lack of content for people who don't want to raid. That means the game needs more content for those people. It's that simple. WoW would be substantially better if LFR were removed and more actual content were added in its place. Those who want a light raiding experience or to see the raids can go do normals, even if not on day 1 but a few months into the expansion when you can jump in with any guild group as a PUG and 1-shot every boss and likely get every single drop because none of them need anything anymore.

Yeah. It would be nice if Blizzard shift their focus from raids to more open world casual content. I doubt people like you will be happy if that implies only 7 or 8 raid boss per XP. The forums will be filled with complains about "Blizzard catering to the casuals again".

Like literally, go to wowprogress, browse the 50+ guilds doing normal/heroic, send a few whispers in game and ask if you can just tag along for normal or something. All problems solved.

You make it sound so easy to find a raid guild willingly to carry a player. Given the attitude I have witness from some players, I highly doubt this is as easy you are making out.

[Jtbrig7390]

1. Masochism.
2. Antisocial.
3. Wants to spend more time waiting around by yourself than spending time communicating with people even if it's faster. Yeah that's classic antisocial behavior.
4. Prefers to sit in queue for 20 minutes waiting for tanks, while claiming this happens in guild groups (almost never).
5. Antisocial.

You make a great argument. I'm convinced. LFR is 10/10.

Like I said childish gibberish, there is nothing people can say to you that you will accept. You think everyone should play your way or not at all.

Want to know why I am mostly anti-social in WoW, Its because I got tired of dealing with people like you, I got tired of the cesspool known as LFG and I got tired of Guild Drama.

I have been playing WoW since TBC and I am just tired of the BS. So ether I play on my time and my way or not at all.

[Tadkins]

Want to know why I am mostly anti-social in WoW, Its because I got tired of dealing with people like you, I got tired of the cesspool known as LFG and I got tired of Guild Drama.

People like him used to rule this game. So it's understandable that they'd want to try and go back to that, just as folks like us are glad they're not in charge anymore.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

People like him used to rule this game. So it's understandable that they'd want to try and go back to that, just as folks like us are glad they're not in charge anymore.

He has some legitimate concern though with the ease of looking raid players accomplish something that takes weeks or months in a couple of hours. Most players didn't raid and pushing them into it was't really an option because if blizzard tried to hard they might just quit instead. I personally think looking for raid gives the majority of players running it something new to do and the ones who want to achieve move to higher difficulties. There might be some people caught in the middle but I think they're percentage of a minority but looking for raid has issues and pretending it's perfect is silly.

[Osmeric]

He has some legitimate concern though with the ease of looking raid players accomplish something that takes weeks or months in a couple of hours. Most players didn't raid and pushing them into it was an option because they might just quit instead. Is looking for raid really the best approach to this situation?

Well, if the devs can find something other than raiding that will engage the average player for an extended period, then that might be better. But I don't know if they have any such thing.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Well, if the devs can find something other than raiding that will engage the average player for an extended period, then that might be better. But I don't know if they have any such thing.

Yea, I just wanted to point out that maybe he doesn't want to rule the game and just thinks it's unhealthy for players to accomplish something in hours that took months. I don't know a better alternative to looking for raid but it has issues. I am pro looking for raid and I can see that clearly. Every form of content has issue raid focus... cough... cough...

They added the monthly gating to looking for raid but for players who come into the game later. They can totally blow through all the content in a couple hours.

[Jinpachi]

I honestly don't care if LFR supplies good rewards. I win either way with that hands down. If your bad your bad. Even if I dress someone up in mythic gear it will be apparent pretty quickly who knows what's going on. But at least when I random que with that Mage that does nothing but spams ice lance its at least a little more productive in moving things along.

Problem with your argument is that Blizzard just makes a game. Players choose to play a game. This isn't a political party. It isn't managing citizens in a nation. Raiding has always been a smaller percentage of players participating in it with a larger resource dump cap. Tell me when that really wasn't the case outside of maybe the first raid.. maybe two.. mostly because it was something like their work in progress project? Not to say things in raiding don't filter down. Models, art assets, mechanics, gameplay, and style all flow outward from it to the rest of the game. But it has always been that way. LFR just gave it to more people, which again, I am totally fine with. But Blizzard should just focus on making the game they want WoW to be. Then letting those people play the game it ends up being. Or not playing it. Even at WoWs peek it had what 12 million players in a world of billions? It would be like me wanting a thrilling single player campaign with a deep story when I bought Overwatch and complaining that all I got was a multiplayer first person shooter. Then on top of it having the nerve to pester and attack Blizzard endlessly for not providing the single player experience I so desired. That is just tough shit buddy. I bought the game so that's the game I get to play. If they add it later, don't add it, or add it and then take it away then that is fucking life. If it makes me not like the game I simply uninstall. I go play with my kid, my dog, tell the wife she is pretty, or for fucks sake just play another game. Life will go on for me.

Will life go on for you though. I have my legit worries about that. You seem very defensive for something you claim is so self explaining. So condencending for someone that just wants to make everything better for the most of us. But you end up just coming across as an asshole that is out to ruin people's fun because you aren't having it. If you want other parts of the game to be better I support you a 100%. Me too. But if it's cost is I have to shit on others than no thanks. That turns me into a true asshole.

exactly this, 100%

[Jtbrig7390]

He has some legitimate concern though with the ease of looking raid players accomplish something that takes weeks or months in a couple of hours. Most players didn't raid and pushing them into it was't really an option because if blizzard tried to hard they might just quit instead. I personally think looking for raid gives the majority of players running it something new to do and the ones who want to achieve move to higher difficulties. There might be some people caught in the middle but I think they're percentage of a minority but looking for raid has issues and pretending it's perfect is silly.

The thing to remember is it only takes a couple hours after waiting months for the full raid to unlock. For me personally come Legion ill keep spamming LFR,World Quests and Heroic Dungeons to max out my gear/ilvl. I love the new loot system and it will help me with gearing to solo MOP and WOD content.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

The thing to remember is it only takes a couple hours after waiting months for the full raid to unlock. For me personally come Legion ill keep spamming LFR,World Quests and Heroic Dungeons to max out my gear/ilvl. I love the new loot system and it will help me with gearing to solo MOP and WOD content.

New loot system is legit purdy cool.

[Jtbrig7390]

Yea, I just wanted to point out that maybe he doesn't want to rule the game and just thinks it's unhealthy for players to accomplish something in hours that took months. I don't know a better alternative to looking for raid but it has issues. I am pro looking for raid and I can see that clearly. Every form of content has issue raid focus... cough... cough...

They added the monthly gating to looking for raid but for players who come into the game later. They can totally blow through all the content in a couple hours.

A thing to consider is maybe 1) that's a small amount and 2) if they couldn't do that maybe they would be done with wow 100%.

We don't have the data to back up what I said or anyone else really, so at best we are just assuming.

- - - Updated - - -

New loot system is legit purdy cool.

Yep. I don't mind spamming LFR over and over because I enjoy LFR "MOP over WOD verson"

[Tadkins]

He has some legitimate concern though with the ease of looking raid players accomplish something that takes weeks or months in a couple of hours. Most players didn't raid and pushing them into it was't really an option because if blizzard tried to hard they might just quit instead. I personally think looking for raid gives the majority of players running it something new to do and the ones who want to achieve move to higher difficulties. There might be some people caught in the middle but I think they're percentage of a minority but looking for raid has issues and pretending it's perfect is silly.

The thing is, as long as Blizzard keeps insisting on putting the meat of its content and storyline into raids, people need to be allowed to see them.

Back in BC I was not lucky enough to have a raid group. So all of that buildup toward bringing down Illidan, it ended up being moot because I would never get to fight him.

As I said, the system was great for those folks who had those great connections. For most of us, not so much.

Keep LFR, or stop putting the major aspects of the storylines in raids.

[primalmatter]

The thing is, as long as Blizzard keeps insisting on putting the meat of its content and storyline into raids, people need to be allowed to see them.

Back in BC I was not lucky enough to have a raid group. So all of that buildup toward bringing down Illidan, it ended up being moot because I would never get to fight him.

As I said, the system was great for those folks who had those great connections. For most of us, not so much.

Keep LFR, or stop putting the major aspects of the storylines in raids.

You realize most raids have about 200 words of dialogue total right? 70% of those are death threats and taunts most raids have very little to do with the story.

To be frank I don't like lfr for how it undermined the rest of the games progression systems but that kind of seems a moot point these days. With scaling gear everyone will have mostly the same ilv eventually so hell lfr is a drop in the bucket at that point.

I still think it will backfire as I see wow as working its best when everyone has content to slowly work through it will kinda have that I guess. I don't really know guess I moved to impartial?

[Deleted]

You realize most raids have about 200 words of dialogue total right? 70% of those are death threats and taunts most raids have very little to do with the story.

To be frank I don't like lfr for how it undermined the rest of the games progression systems but that kind of seems a moot point these days. With scaling gear everyone will have mostly the same ilv eventually so hell lfr is a drop in the bucket at that point.

I still think it will backfire as I see wow as working its best when everyone has content to slowly work through it will kinda have that I guess. I don't really know guess I moved to impartial?

If you mean not being required to do raid tier 1 -> raid tier 2 -> raid tier 3, because raid tier 3 LFR gives gear equivalent to normal raid tier 1/2, I would remind you that there has been a lot of ways to bypass previous raids for a long time, and LFR didn't do much in that regard. If you are talking about raid tier 3 LFR makes raid tier 3 obselete, you are plain wrong.

The biggest issue with WoD, hands down, was that outside of daily / weekly cooldowns, you had nothing to do. There was absolutely nothing in the open world that gave you anything worthwhile. The only exception to this was right at the beginning of WoD when you had to fill barn work orders. When that was over, what worthwhile content was left in the open world? Apexis dailies? The items were so expensive (And badly itemized) that it often wasn't worth the effort at all.

OT: I had one major issue with LFR in MoP and WoD. Legendary quest drop grind. Now that that doesn't exist anymore, I couldn't care less about LFR being in the game.

[HuxNeva]

LFR is in no way mandatory. If you feel that way, then you lack self-control, and that is a personal problem.

You talk of sheeple, yet here you are parroting what the anti-LFR sheeple have been saying since it was implemented. You are quite the sheeple yourself. Now, please come up with some verifiable data that states that LFR has been a failure and is bad for the game. Until you can do that (and sub numbers do not count because changes in them can not be directly attributed to LFR), you can not prove your point, and you can simply be dismissed as a special snowflake trying to preserve some sort of false "uniqueness" along with everyone else that wants LFR removed or calls it a failure.

LFR was put in the game to help people avoid playing with people like you.

LFR is absolutely mandatory. If you don't feel that way, then you lack integrity, and that is a personal problem.

You talk of sheeple, yet here you are parroting what the pro-LFR sheeple have been saying since it was implemented. You are quite the sheeple yourself. Now, please come up with some verifiable data that states that LFR has been a succes and is good for the game. Until you can do that (and participation numbers do not count because changes in them can be directly attributed to mandatory legendary/valor requirements), you can not prove your point, and you can simply be dismissed as a scrub trying to preserve some sort of false "entitlement" along with everyone else that wants LFR to stay or calls it a success.

LFR was put in the game by mistake and destroys the social fabric and skill improvement essential to the MMO.

See how constructive these arguments are?

[Tadkins]

You realize most raids have about 200 words of dialogue total right? 70% of those are death threats and taunts most raids have very little to do with the story.

You're still playing it out to the end in raids, though.

If they're gonna get rid of LFR, then raiding needs to be a side thing not connected with the story, or very thinly at least.

I still think it will backfire as I see wow as working its best when everyone has content to slowly work through it will kinda have that I guess. I don't really know guess I moved to impartial?

If it really worked like that, it wouldn't be too bad. It never did, though. Guilds working through Karazhan would never get to move up, their best members would get poached, forcing them to find new members to gear up and repeating the cycle until the next expansion. Imagine how pissed people would be if all they had was Highmaul throughout all of WoD. xD

[HuxNeva]

Lol at all those people never reading quest texts, but suddenly get all huffy puffy on missing out on the 'story' from raids.

[Tadkins]

Lol at all those people never reading quest texts, but suddenly get all huffy puffy on missing out on the 'story' from raids.

Don't assume that's true for all. I always read the quest texts.

[HuxNeva]

Don't assume that's true for all. I always read the quest texts.

Then you are clearly not one of 'those people'. ;-)