Can I cry now? *Spoilers*

[Aurabolt]

I was disappointed when the events of War Crimes were barely incorporated into the game at all. From a non-book readers perspective, MoP -> WoD makes no sense. We're on the Timeless Isle, Garrosh is imprisoned at the Temple of the White Tiger, and suddenly WoD? They don't explain anything in-game, it's such a shame. They could have explained how the players helping Kairoz at the Timeless Isle collecting Epoch Stones was directly responsible for Garrosh going back in time, but they didn't.

Oh I agree 100%. More so since it's obvious there will be more novels to come to supplement the lore. At least with the WoD to Legion transition they seem to have learned from that.

[Enthralled]

To quote myself from another thread:

Is it me, or has someone been feeding lies to these Naaru, though? Illidan has much changing to do, if he's ever to be redeemed. This guy was willing to sacrifice thousands of people to create hundreds of Demon Hunters for his ends. And worse, he thinks nothing of sacrificing thousands of innocent souls, to accomplish his goals. He's done so several times.

Sure, his goals may ultimately save the universe, but he certainly goes about them in the most awful, dark, corrupted and untrusting of ways. He's as far as you can get from the tenants of the Light as anyone's ever been. There was a lot more compassion, even in Garrosh. More mercy, in Deathwing. More respect, in Arthas. And he hungers more for power than any of them.

Christ on a cracker, how far off from knowing a character can a person get? There's "anti-hero" and then there's "most evil, horrible character in the history of fantasy fiction, ever! Makes Morgoth seem like Baby Jesus!" Dude just isn't that bad. In the history of WoW's raid bosses, he's the one most frequently voted The Guy We Killed Why Again? I mean it's true, I am a fan, but that description there is so over the top that I can't help wonder if you're playing the same game.

[Stormspellz]

it was only heavily implied by velen because he can't see his own visions clearly. he thought it might be anduin and he's wrong.

anduin's prophecy was vs the legion
in the book Illidan prophecy was vs the void lords.

[Darth Vowrawn]

Why is this a shocker? Anyone who's read Illidan, knew that this was a fact.

[Villager720]

This is poor writing and contradictory on top.
Must Starcraft AND Warcraft have their antiheroes become hero heroes?

And the Naaru, with A'dal's sanction, were assaulting BT. They wanted Illidan dead, like us, because he was bat shit crazy and enslaving/murdering innocent denizens. There's even a Naaru with Aldor/Scryer forces outside the gates. We're just to forget this?

[kios]

Let's imbue a been with opposite forces and somehow that will make him stronger

[Caerule]

Christ on a cracker, how far off from knowing a character can a person get? There's "anti-hero" and then there's "most evil, horrible character in the history of fantasy fiction, ever! Makes Morgoth seem like Baby Jesus!" Dude just isn't that bad. In the history of WoW's raid bosses, he's the one most frequently voted The Guy We Killed Why Again? I mean it's true, I am a fan, but that description there is so over the top that I can't help wonder if you're playing the same game.

I think you may indeed be quite a fan of him :P. The "Why did we kill him?" is more a storytelling flaw in TBC though.

I mean yes, he went into TBC an anti-hero. Far from all the things he did wrong were his own fault, despite his switching of sides, and definitely doing the Legion's bidding on several occasions. From there though, he went on to do some pretty bad things.
But let's list his War Crimes then, including those recently exposed in his book.

-He ruled Outland with an iron fist.
-He was a slaver, overseeing the subjugation of the Broken under his own thumb, and that of the Naga.
-He spread corruption, having legions of Fel Orcs created to be his army.
-He enticed people with the power and path of the Demon Hunter, forging them into his tools through a process only 20 or even 10% survive.
-Set up a whorehouse that definitely employed mind control, for the Blood Elves that followed him.
-He tore out the souls of Maiev's forces, and all of his own followers that gained any injury, to open a large, destroying their souls in agony.
-He raided Achindoun for souls, stealing enormous amounts of innocent Draenei souls to be consumed for his next and greatest ritual.

Under his rule, thousands were killed. Corruption was spread. People were enslaved and mind-controlled. The waters of Outland were hoarded. Monsters were created.

Sure, he closed a few portals, and was out to kill Kil'Jaeden. But he committed deeds as evil as Gul'dan. In fact, if we resurrected our old Gul'dan now, the one betrayed by Sargeras and killed on the Broken Isles, he might pretty much be Illidan. Someone that pursues power, and is willing to commit the greatest of evils to defeat the Burning Legion.

[Vynestra]

When we said we wanted a redemption story, this isn't what we meant blizzard.

But I think it could be interesting.

[Deleted]

It feels like most of your posts insults the intelligence of everyone else, telling them what to think.

Personally i'l take this kind of story any day over the emo-teenage-twilight feeling i'm getting from your avatar pic.

GG to the 2k+ generation

So you say that you would take this shit over the Manga Tokyo Ghoul and you still want to be taken serious? Everyone who thinks this Story is good is a complete Moron. Right now, the only Story Arc that could be good in Legion are some of the Class Campaigns and the Sylvanas vs Genn Story. Turning Illidan into the Champion of Light and Darkness is stupid. Mixing up this Light and Darkness Stuff is stupid, because the Darkness is kinda evil and corrupting. It was even described as corrupting in WoD, not a while ago. It destroyed the Shadowmoon Clan from Alternative Draenor. And Illidan had never to do something with Light or Darkness. It's the same stupid story like with Thrall back in Cata, destroying he popular Character because Blizz don't understand why people like them. You guys surely remember how Thrall happened to be one of the most popular characters in the Warcraft Franchise, loved by Horde and Alliance Fans alike and what happened with his popularity after Cataclysm. That's what will happen with Illidan. If Blizz really turns him into the Angel of Light, he will be far more hated than Med'an.

The people like Illidan because he is an Anti-Hero. Because he does the right things out of the wrong reasons or the wrong things with the best intentions. We like him, because he is not above the consequences of his actions, like Sylvanas. The whole Story of Bc is, now after the Novel, the Story of how all his mistakes find him and how he must face the consequences of his actions just before he could turn everything right, destroying Argus. His Story has bitter irony and that makes it good.

[Thrif]

Am I the only one who thinks "the chosen one" is a weak plot device, and that a hero's success or failure is far more interesting if it is driven by choice instead of the concept of "destiny"?

No, far from it. And not even that, but Blizzard completely screwed over the StarCraft lore with it not so long ago, with Kerrigan being the chosen one for whatever reason.

It's like Blizzard can only write one story, and it's the poorest and most pathetic story ever. There's an unspeakable evil that's evil just to be evil, there's a chosen one to fight that evil, and all races involved must band together and hold hand for it to work.

It's just sad.

[Deleted]

No, far from it. And not even that, but Blizzard completely screwed over the StarCraft lore with it not so long ago, with Kerrigan being the chosen one for whatever reason.

It's like Blizzard can only write one story, and it's the poorest and most pathetic story ever. There's an unspeakable evil that's evil just to be evil, there's a chosen one to fight that evil, and all races involved must band together and hold hand for it to work.

It's just sad.

The sad Thing is, a Song of Ice and Fire is probably exactly the same story, just a billion times better told.

[Spiffums]

If Elune created the Naaru, wouldnt that lend weight to the theory that Elune is a "Light Lord" (light side equivalent to the Void Lords) - given that the Void Lords created the Old Gods.... mirroring Elune creating the Naaru?

Azeroth is dark and ful or terrors. Only the Lord of Light can save us now........Illidan is the Stallion Who Will Mount The World!!!

[Qualia]

And the Naaru, with A'dal's sanction, were assaulting BT. They wanted Illidan dead, like us, because he was bat shit crazy and enslaving/murdering innocent denizens. There's even a Naaru with Aldor/Scryer forces outside the gates. We're just to forget this?

Except that the Naaru did it because of a misunderstanding (they thought Illidan sent his force to attack Shattrah, when in fact it was Kael's doing) and because the player characters incited them. Before that, A'dal was cool with everything Illidan was doing when Maievh asked for his help to attack Illidan.

Also, the elder Naaru (Xe'ra) doesn't seem to work together, or at least keep a good line of communication of other lower Naarus that we know. Illidan himself pointed out when he realized that the Naaru are attacking BT - he wondered whether the Naaru betrayed him, or the elder Naaru wasn't working together with others. The later is more likely to be the case. Now that we get Xe'ra message, the other Naaru will probably go back to their "oh cool" state before player characters got to Outland in TBC.

Why couldn't they just have Anduin represent the light and Illidan represent the shadow? Anduin can be the person that gives people hope while Illidan is the one that does what is needed.

I assure you, that'd be one of the worse option. Instead of having Illidan as the savior, now we have both Illidan and Anduin as saviors. I doubt people'd be happier to get that...

[Thrif]

The sad Thing is, a Song of Ice and Fire is probably exactly the same story, just a billion times better told.

Well, with the current setup the description could actually fit Azor Ahai, the Others and the kingdoms of Westeros pretty well. Knowing GRRM though, it could also be something completely different. He is known to take basic story tropes and play with them and then completely crush them to pieces.

And even if it is, I guess like you said, it's just proof that you can tell a good story out of any basic stupid concept. And it'd only be a part of the overarching story since the War of the Five Kings have already taken up a majority of the books.

[Qualia]

Anduin was constantly hinted at having a greater purpose and the only thing he has even shown any talent in is the light. If they're going to hint so much at Anduin then at least let him represent the light side and not a guy who's never shown one thought of being holy.

He is still going to be a champion of Light, just like Illidan and many others. It's not like he got dumped, just that he wouldn't be that much of a main character in this plot. That makes sense, too, so far Anduin hasn't shown himself to be particularly powerful yet - much less being good at fighting.

Also, as stated many times, you don't need "holy thought" to be a champion of the Light. Just need to 1) be confident that you can do it and probably 2) be damn good at killing enemies of the Light.

[Zoldor]

No, far from it. And not even that, but Blizzard completely screwed over the StarCraft lore with it not so long ago, with Kerrigan being the chosen one for whatever reason.

It's like Blizzard can only write one story, and it's the poorest and most pathetic story ever. There's an unspeakable evil that's evil just to be evil, there's a chosen one to fight that evil, and all races involved must band together and hold hand for it to work.

It's just sad.

This is pretty much any war story. Especially in fantasy and Sci-Fi, why? Because everyone likes a figure to cast as important, especially if we demand a one over arching super power villain. Stop acting like Blizzard is the only company to use this trope, its an insanely common trope in writing. In fact, it is the most used trope as it is the basis for the epic.

This is fucking Gilgamesh for christ sake. Star Wars, same trope. All comics, same trope (see Justice League/Avengers - One super powered one sacrifices self to stop great evil), Song of Fire and Ice for all you newbies, X-Men (see Jean Grey), Alien (Ripley), Hell every war movie has one great General who does it all and inspires his guys who are ragtag team who wouldn't be friends other than common enemy. It is an endless trope, because its true. If there is a giant evil in the world a group divided is never going to conquer it. Matrix, etc I could go on and on. The reason it exists is because it makes sense. The idea of one chosen one just gives a hero to combat the usual one super villain leading the other side, who you could say is also the one. Warhammer 40k even. God Emperor and Horus. I mean its fairly endless.

If you don't like the trope write a new one. Good luck with that btw, as writers have been attempting it for 100s of years and are yet to do it. Especially in the sense of an all encompassing world. Otherwise it will always feel disjointed or you are just telling the story of a small subset of people within the larger group. To tell an epic you need epic characters and leaders and large than life characters that overcome great odds, but have flaws otherwise they are super dull. Redemption is a part of every character's story otherwise they are either wholey good or wholey evil.

Also, notice the similarity between Illidan and Sargeras? There is a reason for that. It is the fine line that divides the heads of either side. That same ideal is Joker/Batman, Lex/Superman, Xavier/Magneto. Blizzard loves the cyclical story telling ideal of characters its fits their worlds. All battling for the same thing, to save this one world that could be the world that truly stops the void lords. We won't be the ones to stop the void lords it will be Azeroth itself which, could in a round about way mean us and all the things this world creates. Maybe that is why Azeroth was to be the most powerful titan, not just because it would turn into one huge god being, but because the things bread from its world would be more unstoppable than a singular titan being. There is a shitload of interpretation.

But we can mock this anti-hero, redemption, the one trope all we want, but it is all around us and it makes sense from a story telling point of view and allows focal point heroes. Otherwise its just a war story where no one matters, no one is special and we are just soldiers fighting. Those stories can be entertaining, but when you choose to have one Bad Guy, you need his nemesis or opposite. Otherwise it sets off a weird imbalance of how one guy could get so much power, but the other side can't muster that.

I'm not a huge Illidan fan at all, but the story trope makes sense, whether its played out or not (I mean its older than large swaths of civilization), but it works.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, with the current setup the description could actually fit Azor Ahai, the Others and the kingdoms of Westeros pretty well. Knowing GRRM though, it could also be something completely different. He is known to take basic story tropes and play with them and then completely crush them to pieces.

And even if it is, I guess like you said, it's just proof that you can tell a good story out of any basic stupid concept. And it'd only be a part of the overarching story since the War of the Five Kings have already taken up a majority of the books.

If by crush to pieces you mean kill off the center point of those tropes in a less than climatic way, then yes.

[DaHomieG]

Because that will be a shitty Story that insults the intelligence of every player. And why Illidan is called a boy? That all sounds like a cheap Harry Potter Rip-Off. Illidan is a fucking 10.000 years old adult man.

Because even if he is that old, that Naaru is maybe four times that?

[Wondercrab]

This whole plot seems like a pretty classic case of Blizzard writers plugging in the tropes without really understanding the workings of their own story. Going in this direction with Illidan completely undermines the entire appeal of his character and what makes him interesting in the first place. This is why I just want them to focus on new stuff rather than dredging up past characters over and over again, because at least when they're doing new things they occasionally create cool characters and stories. It's very apparent that they don't know what to do with their older creations, resulting in a lot of situations like this where they exist long enough for the limitations of the writing to shine through and mess them up.

[Enthralled]

I think you may indeed be quite a fan of him :P. The "Why did we kill him?" is more a storytelling flaw in TBC though.

I mean yes, he went into TBC an anti-hero. Far from all the things he did wrong were his own fault, despite his switching of sides, and definitely doing the Legion's bidding on several occasions. From there though, he went on to do some pretty bad things.
But let's list his War Crimes then, including those recently exposed in his book.

-He ruled Outland with an iron fist.
-He was a slaver, overseeing the subjugation of the Broken under his own thumb, and that of the Naga.
-He spread corruption, having legions of Fel Orcs created to be his army.
-He enticed people with the power and path of the Demon Hunter, forging them into his tools through a process only 20 or even 10% survive.
-Set up a whorehouse that definitely employed mind control, for the Blood Elves that followed him.
-He tore out the souls of Maiev's forces, and all of his own followers that gained any injury, to open a large, destroying their souls in agony.
-He raided Achindoun for souls, stealing enormous amounts of innocent Draenei souls to be consumed for his next and greatest ritual.

Under his rule, thousands were killed. Corruption was spread. People were enslaved and mind-controlled. The waters of Outland were hoarded. Monsters were created.

Sure, he closed a few portals, and was out to kill Kil'Jaeden. But he committed deeds as evil as Gul'dan. In fact, if we resurrected our old Gul'dan now, the one betrayed by Sargeras and killed on the Broken Isles, he might pretty much be Illidan. Someone that pursues power, and is willing to commit the greatest of evils to defeat the Burning Legion.

LOL, no way. You are way overstating the case here. You've now said he's as evil as MU Gul'dan, has less mercy than Deathwing, less respect than the Lich King (what does that even mean? lmao) and less compassion than Garrosh. Go ahead and pile some more hyperbole on, it's getting funny here, I mean it. "The ends justifies the means" is a definite failing of his but to he wasn't aware the f what he was doing or that he came to regret the fact that he had become cold to the carnage he caused would be flat-out incorrect.

[UnluckyAmateur]

BOY

ILLIDAN

I feel like they originally meant for Anduin to fill this role but they just shoehorned Illidan in for sales. Isn't that what they did in cata but instead of illidan and anduin it was thrall and Med'an?