Venezuela: how the socialist paradise turned into debt and hyperinflation hell

[Auxora]

What Venezuela did was closer to communism than socialism. And they didn't just drive foreign investment out and nationalized, they essentially stole and took over most foreign facilities the businesses had in the country. And then took a super-hostile stance towards the US which didn't help their economy either. That's on top of lots of corruption and fairly dictatorial laws. The UK is socialist, and is nothing like Venezuela.

I assume this is kind of a backhanded swipe at Sanders, since so many opponents to him really jumped on the socialist part of him saying he was a democratic socialist (they always leave out the first part of that). It was a poor choice of words by him since he's more of a reformist in some areas that need reform, and made him an easy target by leaving the democratic part out and then painting him as a radical like Castro or Hugo Chavez which he is clearly not.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

I mean we spend more money on healthcare than any other industrialized nation with socialized healthcare with far worse results, so in that way it's clearly better.

That is a legitimate criticism of our current health system, but I don't think the fix is necessarily a massive ane expensive federal bureaucracy which will take the power to fire a doctor and customize their treatment out of the hands of a consumer. I might be receptive to the idea of funding basic emergency care with SERIOUS limitations as to what it covers but I'd even have to see the numbers on that to be convinced of it's value. The VA is funded by our much maligned military spending, is hugely expensive and can't even keep the tiny portion of our population represented by military retirees receiving proper care. That for the whole country would be an unmitigated disaster.

But it also should be a basic human right to not die of preventable illnesses in a first world country where people pay taxes. We can go down the line of things we would have to cut to assure it, and I'm sure 90% of them would be less necessary than "healthcare"

I don't believe you can have a right to something produced by someone else's expertise or labor. If someone else makes it, they deserve compensation. Healthcare is a commodity just like anything else. You need food a lot more than you need a doctor. Food is not a basic human right, it is a commodity. It must be traded for. We use taxpayer funds to purchase commodities for the common good all the time, and we should. That does not mean those things become rights however. It just means most of us agreed to collectively purchase something for our common benefit.

[igualitarist]

Socialism works for a few countries and does not work for a few countries, and i don't think anyone ever called Venezuela a ''socialist paradise''.

Those countries were socialism "works" aren't really socialists. They are capitalists.

Remove capitalism from their economy (like Venezuela is doing), and they will fall apart.

Social welfare is not the same as socialism, as many people here errouneus think.

[Paranoid Android]

No it also gives 100% free medical service to the poorest citizens.

Really? I think its 25 states that did not opt in to Medicaid Expansion of ObamaCare.

Twenty-five states didn’t take up the Obamacare Medicaid expansion at the beginning of this year, and the results speak for themselves: A new survey shows more than one-third of their lowest-income residents remain uninsured, a rate virtually unchanged from last year, even as millions gained coverage elsewhere

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5572079.html


Edit: Just using ACA as an example. If socialism is always authoritarian as some have stated. Then I think Obama would have force ACA onto all states.

[PC2]

No it doesn't. Medicare does.

I read that the ACA made it possible through Medicare, but yeah I understand your point.

- - - Updated - - -

Really? I think its 25 states that did not opt in to Medicaid Expansion of ObamaCare.

I see, I thought it was most states, not half the states.

[Xarkan]

Well, that's just flat-out incorrect. That's why we take issue with it; it's an untrue statement.

There are plenty of democratically socialist countries out there. Canada, the Scandinavian states, etc. They're generally less authoritarian than the USA is, recently speaking at least.

I would think Scandinavia is more social liberal than anything. It is all middle ground (and if democracy works it makes sense if the result ends up near the middle rather than failing by going between extremes i guess)

Edit: some interpretations of social liberal may vary from this one, social liberal [here] is the compromise between socialism and liberalism and thus social liberal.

[Forogil]

I assume this is kind of a backhanded swipe at Sanders, since so many opponents to him really jumped on the socialist part of him saying he was a democratic socialist (they always leave out the first part of that). It was a poor choice of words by him since he's more of a reformist in some areas that need reform, and made him an easy target by leaving the democratic part out and then painting him as a radical like Castro or Hugo Chavez which he is clearly not.

Well, Sanders seems ignorant of Venezuela and Cuba. As far as I understand US, Haiti, Cuba, and Venezuela are all part of the same hemisphere. Sanders think that a Haiti minimum wage of 5$ a day is the bottom in the hemisphere, the Venezuelan is 13.5$/month.

[Bollocks]

1) Socialism is authoritarian. They need a big ass government to dictate everything you do, where is the freedom in that?

2) As far as I remember the US Government created a ton of jobs to mitigate the effects of the great depression.

3) The thing with Menem is that he was corrupt as fuck, his economic team actually did a good job in the first couple of years then they started to hide the actual numbers and then when de la Rua came it exploded in his face, he could have handled it better but he was a good for nothing. How about you, implying you are not argentinian, google Cristina Fernandez and her pseudo socialist economic system, it trashed our economy in 8 years, she manipulated the inflation numbers and now it all went to hell thanks to it, she also manipulated all the media to boost her image but not everyone here is an idiot and knows what she did was atrocious. Lets not forget how we had less poverty than germany which is utter bollocks (actual numbers are 40%) and a lot more, I could make a book with all the bad things she did.

4) Bush? yeah, I didn't like him either.

1. No. Socialism doesn't dictate you what to do, it just distributes the money that was taken from taxes. They can allow more taxes, but individuals are not forced to anything but that, companies on the other hand.

2. Nope, the US goverment closed most of the buisnesses and regulated all of the market. Once they "purged" the market they started creating new necessary jobs
3. Menem created a bubble it was bound to explode, his idiocy and corrupt nature just accelerated it, just to put an example the convertibility plan was a complete disaster.
And Cristina, I know she is incompetent, my point was incompetent leaders are going to be incompetent regardless of the ideology

[araine]

Is it your standard debate tactic to attack the intelligence and education of your opponents while ignoring their arguments, or are you making a special case for this discussion?

If you're ready to start supporting your claims with logic and evidence, address the stated points of your opponents and generally contribute something of value, feel free to do so. If however you are going to simply continue hurling insults, restating your original claims, and acting like a petulant child, go sit at the kiddie table while adults are talking.

like i said it isnt my fault that you dont know what socialism is, i as a socialist can promise you, you have no idea what socialism really is. really who do you expect to know more about what socialism is? a socialist or a right winger?

[Bollocks]

Go reread you history my friend. None of FDR's policies worked. They all failed miserable. What bailed us out was World War II.

Read and learn before you spout nonsense.

I've read it, in fact I've dedicated entire researchs for it. The policies did work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U..._1910-1960.gif

[PC2]

I've read it, in fact I've dedicated entire researchs for it. The policies did work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U..._1910-1960.gif

So is Clinton proposing those policies or what?

[Bollocks]

So is Clinton proposing those policies or what?

I don't think those policies would work in modern market.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

like i said it isnt my fault that you dont know what socialism is, i as a socialist can promise you, you have no idea what socialism really is. really who do you expect to know more about what socialism is? a socialist or a right winger?

Your argument thus far has relied on the tactic of plugging your ears and repeating your original statement over and over again. My daughter uses this often, but she's 4.

[Thepersona]

Your argument thus far has relied on the tactic of plugging your ears and repeating your original statement over and over again. My daughter uses this often, but she's 4.

i live in south america. venezuela is by no means a socialist paradise, i don know what the right wingers read here.
maduro being a bad president and screwing up their economy (wich is not on the level that some want to say) is a diferent thing with how socialism works.
also, unstopped capitalism also leads to bad things

[Bollocks]

Your argument thus far has relied on the tactic of plugging your ears and repeating your original statement over and over again. My daughter uses this often, but she's 4.

People would take you seriosly and answer to your arguments if did not took definitions from dictionaries. yeah state ownership is part of socialism. But nevertheless lets use that technique and take definitions of socialism and how its applied in society from the dictionary:
1

: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

However I would like you to read books that provide you with a more in-depth look of what socialism actually is . I'll suggest you to read The case for socialism by Alan Mass its the basic book to understand it.

[Thetruth1400]

So they/you are going to ignore a govt that is basically 125% corrupt and stole billions..if not trillions and then blame it on a socialist system?

no matter what system you have, if you have corruption it won't work.

they did not "run out of other peoples wealth"....

but hey at least they are not 20 trillion in debt with a 90 trillion dollar hole of SS, Pensions and retirement plans coming due in the next 25 years. F-ya amirite?

Way to bring common sense into things! It couldn't be because they were reliant on oil for 96% of their export earnings, which worked when oil was over $100 a barrel, but came crashing down to roughly $40 a barrel. It couldn't be because they relied on 65% of their energy needs from a single hydroelectric dam that's in trouble. It couldn't be because of the massive corruption their government has. It couldn't be because of their crime.

Nope, it's all socialism's fault!

[Independent voter]

To try to shore up wages, Maduro on Sunday announced a 30% minimum-wage increase, which comes after a 25% hike on March 1 and is the 33rd wage boost since 1999. Beginning this month, workers and pensioners will earn 15,051 bolivars a month — only about $13, based on the black-market conversion rate, according to El País.

That amount may become even more paltry. Venezuela’s inflation rate in 2015 was 180.9%, according to the central bank, and the International Monetary Fund expects inflation in the country to reach 720% this year.

The acquisition of food has become the primary function of Venezuelans:


“I have to leave the house at 5 a.m., facing the risk of being killed, to stand in line all day and only buy two or three products,” Jhonny Mendez said.

[Thepersona]

Way to bring common sense into things! It couldn't be because they were reliant on oil for 96% of their export earnings, which worked when oil was over $100 a barrel, but came crashing down to roughly $40 a barrel. It couldn't be because they relied on 65% of their energy needs from a single hydroelectric dam that's in trouble. It couldn't be because of the massive corruption their government has. It couldn't be because of their crime.

Nope, it's all socialism's fault!

remember, thinking in more possible causes is hard, and is easier to attack the big bad socialist

[araine]

Your argument thus far has relied on the tactic of plugging your ears and repeating your original statement over and over again. My daughter uses this often, but she's 4.

You can repeat the denial of what socialism is in your opinion, me as a socialist i have a pretty clear idea on what it stands for, for me and many other democratic socialists around the world. just because some random dictator says his country is a socialist country doesnt make it a true democratic socialism, notice the hint in there DICTATOR. But i am sure you will ignore those facts like you have ignored everything else just like i fully expected right wingers to be doing.

[stomination]

All of these arrogant youngin' radicalized millennial types clamoring for socialism should take a close look to see exactly what socialism is.

Or they should take a close look at a country that is basing its entire economy on oil.