Raids Are Important, Even If You Never See Them

[Queen of Hamsters]

Guys, there is nothing to discuss here. Raids are the main focal point of the video game.
.

Not when they're doing it correctly.
Something went wrong with WoD and the raid developers were the only ones seemingly able to shrug it off, at least for 2 tiers.
However, in Legion they're going back to the game having multiple routes of progression, lots of activities at endgame NOT aimed at raiding and all that jazz.
Time will tell if they'll keep it up in patches beyond 7.0.

[purebalance]

Warlords put the lie to that. Nearly 5 million quit before the last tier of raids was even out.

Except it wasn't new and challenging since you could LFR all the bosses. So I really don't know where you're going with that. People more than likely quit because it WASN'T the challenge it claimed it would be.

[Blur4stuff]

what made raids successful in the first place

vanilla and TBC raids were a horrific failure. Wotlk weren't necessarily that much better, but they had some bright spots.

not sure there are rose colored glasses thick enough to nostalgia my way into thinking otherwise

raids are important

not in the slightest. WoW would have been and could still be a better game with zero raiding. they're already not important to the vast majority of players and never have been. they are not the reason WoW has been successful in the past.

you can clearly see that Blizzard devs thought otherwise when the game started. they figured raids were important, probably because of EQ1. they were wrong and have been slowly realizing that over the past 12 years.

[feellucky]

There's also a lot of players that will go "Well, I don't have the time to commit to raiding, and since there's nothing else for me, to do.....guess I'll just cancel".

These people will cancel as soon as they clear LFR then because they aren't gearing up for anything else they dont have time for... so they subscribe for maybe a couple more hours... If LFR was slightly challegning and took some time to complete for people that just couldn't make a specific time commitment each week that would be one thing, but it isn't rewarding because anyone can do it. Personally I'd rather watch videos of someone doing something challenging in game then play through the no challenge tourist mode version. Might as well be called story mode and you go in and one shot everything solo just to see the cut scenes and animations and have a chest at the end where you get a full set of LFR gear. I enjoy the challenge and even for me having done it on heroic already and the difficulty of getting a mythic group together for just a slightly harder version of what I've already done has weakened my desire to go further

If people don't have a few hours a week, 3-6 then a subscription game isn't for them anyway. What is the point of paying a monthly subscription for a game you aren't playing very often. For these kinds of gamers there are much better options when you only have an hour here or there. It doesn't even take that much longer to do other versions as compared to running LFR, once you learn the fights. There are guilds that have cleared mythic now at 6 hours a week, maybe even lower than that. To me it seems that its not really about a time commitment, its just people want success handed to them without having to work for it. You cant blame them, but that doesn't mean it makes a good game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Except it wasn't new and challenging since you could LFR all the bosses. So I really don't know where you're going with that. People more than likely quit because it WASN'T the challenge it claimed it would be.

The higher difficulties opened way before LFR, the people aspiring to raid properly were killing bosses on Normal+ way before the LFR crowd got theirs.
The people seeking challenge, don't settle for LFR. Simple as that. HFC Mythic has presented some if not the most challenging raid content to date.

[Starry Sidekick]

Whether or not a fight is content is an opinion. I tend to think that they are. You don't and that's OK. An interesting thing to think about is a second boss in some different raid entirely that has most of the same mechanics of another boss. The fight is largely the same but the surrounding environment and many other things could be different. I suspect most would call that new content. They might be wrong about that.

As to the once-and-done theory, before LFR and mythic there was normal and heroic. There wasn't a lot of discussion about normal ruining heroic for anyone. Some of course but nothing like now. So I don't really buy into that. Your post presumes that LFR keeps people from running higher levels of difficulty when all of the evidence that Blizzard has ever provided says that the audience for LFR didn't raid much previous to its appearance and has no desire to move up afterwards. So while the idea sounds nice, there's little-to-no real evidence to back it up. Never mind that raiding generally is receiving a lot of pushback from those that prefer to see another set of dungeons or something similar during an expansion. That sort of thing has gone missing completely since LFR has been a thing.

It's inescapable to look at the actual progression of events and statements and not come to the conclusion that LFR largely exists to serve Blizzard's developer's desires to make raids. And keeping a lot of people in those much larger raids has starved the development of content like post-launch dungeons. This is just a fact. I'm not sure the game is better for it.

I think the difference between, say, ICC heroic and normal, and WoD's model, is that beating the entry level ICC still felt like an accomplishment and didn't diminish the raid's "badass" factor. It's the difference between Dark Soul's new game + and an easy mode setting in a game. The game still retains its integrity.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Personally I'd rather watch videos of someone doing something challenging in game then play through the no challenge tourist mode version.

Then that's your choice. The participation rate of LFR, suggests others have different values. Why the hell should options be removed because YOU don't want it? Why should everyone conform to how you think the game should be played?

As a raider and lover of WoW, I see more people having a reason to play thus staying with and paying for the game as a positive. I don't have to touch the content I don't want to do.

[Starry Sidekick]

The higher difficulties opened way before LFR, the people aspiring to raid properly were killing bosses on Normal+ way before the LFR crowd got theirs.
The people seeking challenge, don't settle for LFR. Simple as that. HFC Mythic has presented some if not the most challenging raid content to date.

My problem with LFR in the live game is that I can't skip it. The game is designed for you to work up the ladder of difficulties to keep you busy. If they were to keep difficulty settings, I would want to be able to go directly to the one I feel myself or my group is prepared to deal with, with gear requirements being the same for every one, only the encounters are harder.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I think the difference between, say, ICC heroic and normal, and WoD's model, is that beating the entry level ICC still felt like an accomplishment and didn't diminish the raid's "badass" factor. It's the difference between Dark Soul's new game + and an easy mode setting in a game. The game still retains its integrity.

Killing Heroic bosses in HFC and then moving on to Mythic, has felt like a pretty damned big accomplishment and the fights don't get more badass than what we've gotten in HFC Mythic.

Don't let the nostalgia goggles fool you, the progression of going from Normal to Heroic ICC was the exact same way as the progression for top tier raid difficulties of today.

[Blur4stuff]

what's the point of paying a monthly sub if they can't manage to join a guild and raid properly?

another example of how raiders see what they want instead of reality. non-raiders aren't playing in a raider's game. it's the other way around. raiders aren't important. they aren't better than everyone else. Blizzard made a huge mistake by spending so many resources on them.

when Blizzard finally admitted this to themselves we ended up with LFR. they just can't seem to break themselves away from the design even though it would be the best thing for the game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

My problem with LFR in the live game is that I can't skip it. The game is deigned for you to work up the ladder of difficulties to keep you busy. If they were to keep difficulty settings, I would want to be able to go directly to the one I feel myself or my group is prepared to deal with, with gear requirements being the same for every one, only the encounters are harder.

Oh yeah, and why is that? I've managed to skip it just fine...you know, on account of it releasing later than all the other difficulties, and because I just don't want to do LFR. I've raided throughout MoP, WoD, WOTLK and end of Cata. I've never had to do content I didn't want to, including LFR once it was added.

You can gear your character and get it ready for Normal+ without LFR just fine. I'd say it's the faster option with Mythic Dungeons.

[Starry Sidekick]

Then that's your choice. The participation rate of LFR, suggests others have different values. Why the hell should options be removed because YOU don't want it? Why should everyone conform to how you think the game should be played?

LFR has a high participation rate because they locked a legendary ring, valor points, and one of the fastest ways to get gear behind it. I doubt there are many people who would say they enjoy doing it past the first run-through. If it was purely optional, the most popular difficulty would probably be normal.

[Queen of Hamsters]

LFR has a high participation rate because they locked a legendary ring, valor points, and one of the fastest ways to get gear behind it. I doubt there are many people who would say they enjoy doing it past the first run-through. If it was purely optional, the most popular difficulty would probably be normal.

They have those figures, you don't. And again, gearing through LFR isn't faster than the route through Tanaan and Mythic dungeons + crafted stuff.

Participation in LFR has always been higher according to the numbers they've released. It's always been optional as well. I've got the legendary ring, I've got full 2/2 upgraded gear, and I didn't do LFR once to reach those goals.

[Leyre]

>LFR
>Normal
>Mythic

No need for Heroic

[Starry Sidekick]

They have those figures, you don't. And again, gearing through LFR isn't faster than the route through Tanaan and Mythic dungeons + crafted stuff.

Participation in LFR has always been higher according to the numbers they've released. It's always been optional as well. I've got the legendary ring, I've got full 2/2 upgraded gear, and I didn't do LFR once to reach those goals.

In a lot of ways, it's the path of least resistance. Yes, you don't 'have" to run LFR, but a lot of people do, and not because they want to.

[Fang7986]

Raids are not important, the vast majority of players will never and have no desire to set foot in one

[Queen of Hamsters]

In a lot of ways, it's the path of least resistance. Yes, you don't 'have" to run LFR, but a lot of people do, and not because they want to.

Then that's their problem. No one's forcing their hands.
Plenty of people still PROBABLY run it because they want to, it's their choice of endgame.

[Veritus7]

The trick to this whole thing is the content leading UP to the raids; if you could get gear and jump into a raid in a week in classic, everyone would have seen BWL, AQ40, and Naxx. The catch up gear mechanic is the thing that skips content. Imagine if all the gear you could have gotten prior to highmaul took a long time to make or get, and there was no mythic dungeon loot, LFR gear, or Tanaan jungle, and if raids dropped gear just slightly more scarcely.. Highmaul might still be relevant today. I like the way that Asmongold says all we're doing is playing the latest patch, not even the current expansion any more. Keep the entire expansion relevant.

[Starry Sidekick]

The trick to this whole thing is the content leading UP to the raids; if you could get gear and jump into a raid in a week in classic, everyone would have seen BWL, AQ40, and Naxx. The catch up gear mechanic is the thing that skips content. Imagine if all the gear you could have gotten prior to highmaul took a long time to make or get, and there was no mythic dungeon loot, LFR gear, or Tanaan jungle, and if raids dropped gear just slightly more scarcely.. Highmaul might still be relevant today. I like the way that Asmongold says all we're doing is playing the latest patch, not even the current expansion any more. Keep the entire expansion relevant.

Agreed 100%. Asmongold makes a great point and Blizzard has a habit of literally gouging there own content to make room that they don't need.

[Queen of Hamsters]

The trick to this whole thing is the content leading UP to the raids; if you could get gear and jump into a raid in a week in classic, everyone would have seen BWL, AQ40, and Naxx. The catch up gear mechanic is the thing that skips content. Imagine if all the gear you could have gotten prior to highmaul took a long time to make or get, and there was no mythic dungeon loot, LFR gear, or Tanaan jungle, and if raids dropped gear just slightly more scarcely.. Highmaul might still be relevant today. .

.As someone that tends to raid from patch 1 of an expansion, I say fuck that noise. -_-'
I want content that's challenging due to mechanics and execution. Content doesn't become more challenging because there's a massive grind or wall of repetition hiding the content.

I also don't see a single upside to awaken the poaching problem once more because some people are "challenged" by logistics. People are doing Highmaul/Blackrock Foundry still just fine out of free will, not because it's forced. The 100% mount, transmog, meta...all things keeping the content relevant.