Mafia #70: D&D

[Lysah]

You can't really defend yourself from a day 1 lynch because nothing has been done yet. And when the reason for your lynch is "you didn't post a lot last game" the only defense is pretty much saying it's a retarded lynch.

[Largehorn]

Well we've lost two townies, which could have been better, but I think we can safely say there are lots of power roles about.

I'm inclined to think that the bit of RP about the two floating thingies is related. Probably something like two of the "same" role. The different flavors used to tell between the two of them. I just hope that Dupti and Uggor aren't now cursed in some way... Last thing I want to deal with is 2 poisoner SKs..........

Vote Anakso

I'm going to start with my vote on where I left it yesterday. I don't like the fact that Anakso didn't really catch any flack for starting the Kurenai train and then proceeded to invoke a pot and kettle. I'm also not really sure that going after Kurenai again today is really the best way to go about things.

[Kryllian]

For those of you saying Listo played a town game in hindsight I wish you would have pointed that out. For those of us new to this group, at least in my opinion, it looked like a OMGUS hissy fit. Nothing about the way he handled that felt town to me and I was honestly surprised when he flipped that way.

[dupti]

Several of us claimed we thought he was town.

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It had nothing to do with him playing a 'town game', but more so it would be a terrible claim to pull off as scum no matter what. It just so happens I believe listo is a really smart player so I'd be even more surprised if he did it. I clearly stated this yesterday.

So please don't do the "oh you guys should've told us!1". It isn't only aimed at you Kryllian, but there are several players who are trying to blame the people defending listo for not doing it 'properly' (?).

[Anakso]

I'm going to start with my vote on where I left it yesterday. I don't like the fact that Anakso didn't really catch any flack for starting the Kurenai train and then proceeded to invoke a pot and kettle. I'm also not really sure that going after Kurenai again today is really the best way to go about things.

What? Why do you even think I should get flack for starting a train on day 1? I just voted, and had a good enough reason in my post (for day 1) that people seemed to follow it I guess. The alternative lynch ended up being a townie so I don't quite see your motive other than you're avoiding Kurenai, again.

[Catta]

Baaaaah

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Mæææææh!

[Senna1251]

Good morning everyone.

Speaking up for me, I was personally gut-feeling that Listo was town, but I didn't have anything to back it up, and I could have been horribly wrong. I did the only thing I could do, which was try to re-instigate the Kurenai train for a lynch.

Now, that being said, moving on. We have an early Kurenai train going, which is understandable in that Listo flipped town. However, I'm gut-feeling that Kurenai is also town, because Kurenai and Listo have been neck and neck in the vote counts for a long time. That sounds to me more like we have two town targets and scum are spreading their votes between the two because they don't care if either one (or no one) is lynched. Remember, both Listo and Kurenai had an interesting string of rapid votes on them.

So I'm not going to vote on Kurenai for now. I'm not sure I like the Anakso vote either. There are two interesting groups to me to look at for today.

First group: Those that did not vote on a main train, because the lynch almost did not happen.
Largehorn voted Anakso
Robo voted Catta
Valyrian voted lulz

Second group: Those that argued that Listo's claim was inherently scummy (specifically, argued that the spells that Listo had were anti-town so must be scum)
Jynx-voted after Listo claim
Dendrek-was most obvious arguer
Celtic-voted after Listo claim
Dranx
Razamith-in post #269 said was wary of anyone who thought Listo was town after the claim
Monkz-this one is kinda weak because I'm gathering that Monkz kept his vote on Listo due to Listo's reactions not just the claim, but then he argued later that the claim is scummy

I think any of these are interesting targets to start with.

Vote: Robozerim

Because your quietness is unsettling to me. I was expecting a little more activity from you than what we've seen, and you were conspicuously absent during the later half of yesterday.

[Allowyn]

I actually quite like the fact that Kur didn't claim. Getting tired of the "now there's pressure, now I have to claim.." and then we move onto the next one that claims and so forth.

THIS. especially considering that he and I won the last game and some people are just a little bit salty about that. I get we're all human (or I guess in this game not), and Kurenai didn't post as much as I did and you wanna blame someone. But it's also it's not my fault town failed, because even as scum I helped every day after my aria vote to secure a Deth lynch and it took a few in game days purely because of the inactivity.

Speaking of; he's posted more in this particular game than the following people:

• Razamith
• Largehorn
• Anakso
• Valyrian the Moofia Boss
• Uggorthaholy
• Arlee
• Celtic209
• Blood Fox
• Robozerim

((THE BOLDED PEOPLE WERE SUBBED IN AND OUT AND THEREFORE PROBABLY SHOULD NOT COUNT))

So if we're gonna vote based off inactivity we should vote on anyone on that list. Not Kur who is defending himself not based off the shitty demand to claim, but with words and trying to convince people normally he's town. Now, because he's playing the game how I personally feel it's meant to be played it probably won't reflect well on me, but this is also how I personally feel it's meant to be played; where claiming is an absolute last resort and not a cheap tactic to get out a lynch (that doesn't even work anyway). This game should be where you type what you type and play manipulation as you feel you need to, depending on your end goal.

Yeah. Sure we fucked up on Listo's lynch, but honestly apart from not claiming, what scum feel does Kurenai have? To me at least he has none.

I'm looking right now, at all the people who are so quick to blame the people defending Kurenai; like they know that those people aren't on their scum side and therefore are easy targets.

(also, I had a very long day at work so my sentences may not make sense. Please ask for clarification on any point and I'll do what I can at work tomorrow to answer any question as best as I am capable)

[Largehorn]

What? Why do you even think I should get flack for starting a train on day 1? I just voted, and had a good enough reason in my post (for day 1) that people seemed to follow it I guess. The alternative lynch ended up being a townie so I don't quite see your motive other than you're avoiding Kurenai, again.

Why? Because Kurenai had more posts then you even did. You literally came in and said "Kurenai's a lurker let's lynch them". Yes Listo ended up being town, but Catta was pretty close at the time (even leading at one point) and you're only denial of the Catta wagon was "it's random".

And look, we're right back at looking at only Kurenai again today...

[dupti]

I'm looking right now, at all the people who are so quick to blame the people defending Kurenai; like they know that those people aren't on their scum side and therefore are easy targets.

What? Who are you referring to?

[Kryllian]

I'll go for someone who's been quiet so far.

Vote - Robo

[dupti]

And I'm not sure I understand your logic.

Why do you think they are suspicious for calling out the people defending Kurenai? And how does that make them easy targets? They would only be 'easy' targets if Kurenai flipped scum.

[Anakso]

Why? Because Kurenai had more posts then you even did. You literally came in and said "Kurenai's a lurker let's lynch them". Yes Listo ended up being town, but Catta was pretty close at the time (even leading at one point) and you're only denial of the Catta wagon was "it's random".

And look, we're right back at looking at only Kurenai again today...

It was random, and I didn't literally say that just like I pointed out yesterday that people defending the Kurenai wagon entirely because they don't want to lynch someone for not posting much were wrong because that wasn't the only reason. Day 1 votes are inherently going to have little reasoning behind them, the main reason I picked Kurenai was because he was a generally low poster that also end gamed and won last game while also having survived late game the last few games, making an early lynch on him better for fairness's sake for people who keep dying early while also removing a relatively low post count person early on which is advantageous, and yes I currently have less posts than him but just as I was about to point out the other person,people always look on a lurker being pushed and say 'hey look he's got a lot of posts this game' well of course he does, we're making him post because he has to respond to people voting on him. That's a good thing. i'd guarantee he'd have less than half the posts he does if no one had voted him.

As for being back at Kurenai, for the record I don't think your vote on me is to avoid Kurenai because I think he's the only person you can vote, just that the reason you're voting on me appears ridiculous. Voting someone day 1 that ended up with a lot of votes but didn't get lynched and a townie got lynched instead. Sure sounds good. Yes Catta was also an option but if I just didn't want catta lynched it would have been easy for me to hide on the listo train instead like many did. If you're looking at people diverting away from catta, a better thing to look at would be people voting Listo when catta and Listo were about even.

[Dendrek]

Several of us claimed we thought he was town.

So please don't do the "oh you guys should've told us!1". It isn't only aimed at you Kryllian, but there are several players who are trying to blame the people defending listo for not doing it 'properly' (?).

No. You did actually defend him properly. Arialla and Uggor did not. You stated your actual reason for thinking he was town. Uggor literally did nothing but change his vote and act annoyed. Arialla mostly just passively agreed with what others were saying and said he refused to switch (making it obvious he was adamant, but not obvious why). Those two apparently had legitimate town reads on Listo but chose to only explain it after he was lynched. If they get to play the hindsight card, why shouldn't they get flack for not mounting a better defense?

As for my thoughts on Kurenai: Really not liking his attitude this game. I understand it, but it's annoying. He's not attempting to do anything useful. Until Listo claimed, I preferred to see Kurenai lynched yesterday. I did not vote Kurenai because Listo was in the lead and it would have been a bad move to keep the trains even with only a few hours left in the day. He was also defended by several people yesterday (a litany of "I disagree with this lynch" without much reason stated by most of them), which ended up with Listo's train taking the lead.

I'm gut-feeling that Kurenai is also town [...]

Second group: Those that argued that Listo's claim was inherently scummy (specifically, argued that the spells that Listo had were anti-town so must be scum)

Perhaps you can explain this to me? If you think Kurenai is town, why would scum push Listo? He was already the lead train. If they were trying to avoid getting a lynch off, that doesn't make sense.

As for the claim: Did you believe Listo's claim was town? Dupti believed Listo was too smart to post that claim. Arialla and Uggor both had character reads (based on his reactions) to think he was town. In other words, it was Listo specifically, and not his claim, that had them thinking he was town. Anyone saying the claim itself was obviously town is a liar. (Looking at you, Graeham.)

[Razamith]

One day everyone will be on the same page of analyzing content/contribution vs arbitrary post count thresholds and that game will be truly epic/pure. -.-

Right now my top desire is to get a better read on kurenai (or see his flip). Because that will contextualize a lot of the arguments happening yesterday/today if he's scum vs town, and if the former on a team or solo. Not seeing any input from him so far is disappointing but dont know schedule vs 11 hours into day phase. As I basically stated last post if kurenai is town then easily scum could have been on either or neither, and then have "ammunition" to blame the defenders/train voters/'obvious town play' arguments (along with possibly townies agreeing/making same arguments). If kurenai is scum on a team then with things being that close there almost has to be enough scum that stayed on or moved on (possibly along with a few who risked jumping off/not joining) that the train list becomes a lot more interesting. If kurenai is scum solo like an SK then its actually back to the town scenario above. I kinda really want to know, and deciding if its worth risking our lynch dayphase on it.

For the record the best counter argument for listo's claim is what Dupti (most prominently at least) said in that they give listo more credit then to infodump incriminating claim. My personal thoughts to that was listo said multiple times (at beginning and after claim, like #239) theme knowledge was limited. That first ability i still cant think of any reason a town listo would have ever used it, or why the mod would give it to town; the ninja thing was at least possible but still leaned another way, and I theorized he thought the abilities sounded townish while listing them, since he couldn't invent new plausible stuff without better theme knowledge.

[Dendrek]

For the record, I am not saying scum can't be at the end of Listo's train. It is absolutely possible. But people are giving half-assed "strategic" reasons why you'll find them there, and I don't agree with that. Some of you are even contradicting yourself in making this argument. How can they simultaneously be trying to insure a lynch doesn't get off while also trying to push the easy "obviously scum" lynch? Some serious mental gymnastics going on there.

[Senna1251]

Perhaps you can explain this to me?

Sure, I will have a go.

If you think Kurenai is town, why would scum push Listo? He was already the lead train. If they were trying to avoid getting a lynch off, that doesn't make sense.

Because I don't work in absolutes when I'm town. I have never in my experience seen scum group up like that in any other game. I believe that scum were somewhat evenly split between the Kurenai and the Listo lynch, and didn't really care about who got lynched, with the exception of knowing that Listo actually is a power role. Rixis's flip suggests that not everyone is a power role. Another thing to consider is that scum may prefer to get a lynch off in a power role heavy game because tprs are dangerous.

As for the claim: Did you believe Listo's claim was town? Dupti believed Listo was too smart to post that claim. Arialla and Uggor both had character reads (based on his reactions) to think he was town. In other words, it was Listo specifically, and not his claim, that had them thinking he was town. Anyone saying the claim itself was obviously town is a liar. (Looking at you, Graeham.)

If I look at this claim as a role on a wiki site, I would assume that it helps scum yes. But I don't play like that. My gut feel came from all sorts of factors such as Listo not knowing the D&D universe, to it being a role-play heavy game, to the reactions, to how far Listo defended, etc. To not consider any of that seems silly in my opinion, so I'm not sure what the point of this question is.

[Graeham]

As for the claim: Did you believe Listo's claim was town? Dupti believed Listo was too smart to post that claim. Arialla and Uggor both had character reads (based on his reactions) to think he was town. In other words, it was Listo specifically, and not his claim, that had them thinking he was town. Anyone saying the claim itself was obviously town is a liar. (Looking at you, Graeham.)

Did I say that? I don't recall.

[KurenaiXIII]

What? Why do you even think I should get flack for starting a train on day 1? I just voted, and had a good enough reason in my post (for day 1) that people seemed to follow it I guess. The alternative lynch ended up being a townie so I don't quite see your motive other than you're avoiding Kurenai, again.

If you think 'won last game' is a valid reason for a day 1 lynch, then I think you're fucked in the head.

If you think 'lower poster, obviously lurker', then also, fucked in the head, why don't you vote Arialla every day?

I think you're full of bullshit.

[Lysah]

Scum are at the end of both trains. You think they care who they lynch? Both trains are probably town. Everything is still speculation at this point because 1 piece of data does not create a pattern, hence why I stopped playing heavily until day 3 or 4 lately. Having such a contested lynch is interesting, however, and can give us a more educated guess as to who to go for, but going for Kurenai is just stupid in my opinion. In fact, I would posit that people who want to go for Kurenai today are themselves scum looking for an easy excuse to lynch. Other than that, I would be asking the question "why not kurenai or listo?" People who avoided both trains are probably the most suspicious in these circumstances, since nearly every player was on one train or the other, avoiding both kind of screams "don't want to get caught with my teammates."