Tier gear is back into lfr!!

[Osmeric]

No you don't, you're self-admittedly campaigning that "the game should be extremely easy, to the point that my hamster could succeed at it". I'll talk from the viewpoint of shareholders, try to refute.

The shareholders want to maximize income, specifically subscription income since everyone buys the x-pack anyway even if they quit soon. To maximize subscription income devs need to incentivize non-raiders to play the game and stay subbed all the time; raiders will stay subbed for raids anyway. To incentivize non-raiders to play the game the devs need to make solo / small group content rewarding, more rewarding than LFR to make sure that non-raiders stay subbed after they inevitably clear LFR on the first day it becomes available. Ergo, dungeons / world content should reward higher ilvl gear than LFR, making non-raiders increase shareholders' income.

Your turn

I'm not sure that what you wrote there contradicts what you said I was saying.

[enchiridion]

you are neglecting though, that if you just hand out gear, or make it easy to get to people's expectations one or both of two major things will happen 1. people will see no reason to do more difficult content (this is evidenced by the amount of people who are content to just do lfr) 2. the requirement that people have will go up. at least one of those is a given, not to mention if the gear available outside of x difficulty is too high, devs will see too many people clearing content too quickly and increase the difficulty....which will make people increase what they ask for ilvl.

Like i said, its not something that blizz can fix on their own without severely limiting player choice as players with this mindset will simply adapt to whatever gap filler blizz gives. and if you dont think they watch how quickly people consume content, i dont know how to help you...they dont want people unsubbing for several months til the next raid then resubbing....thats lost money and increased chance for people to quit for good

[Osmeric]

you are neglecting though, that if you just hand out gear, or make it easy to get to people's expectations one or both of two major things will happen 1. people will see no reason to do more difficult content (this is evidenced by the amount of people who are content to just do lfr)

These people would not have done difficult content anyway. Difficult content has never been more than a minority interest in WoW.

2. the requirement that people have will go up. at least one of those is a given, not to mention if the gear available outside of x difficulty is too high, devs will see too many people clearing content too quickly and increase the difficulty....which will make people increase what they ask for ilvl.

People screen others because the content is such that they can't as easily carry underperforming players. This isn't the fault of LFR, it's the fault of the content that doesn't admit much carrying.

Ultimately, trying to stretch out game content by making it harder simply doesn't work very well.

[enchiridion]

You people need to stop crying like a fking baby about LFR

If you dont like it, just dont do it, wtf

for some people its not about THEM doing it, its about what the ripple effect is- if people can get rewards they perceive to be the same as a higher difficulty why would they do said higher difficulty, this coupled with the natural flow of people leaving the game (lack of interest in content, growing out of wow, higher priorities) this leads to raids dwindling and with only having one raid size for highest level content this means the number of people leaving could outweigh the number of people coming in...thus raid teams die

[Ragnarohk]

As someone who only does LFR at the moment, I'm saddened by the fact that blizz added that to LFR.

[Jtbrig7390]

if people can get rewards they perceive to be the same as a higher difficulty why would they do said higher difficulty.

And the thing people who think as such don't realize is that group would NEVER do the higher difficulty anyway.

Raiding NM+ has always been a niche group and always will be. Once again Pre-LFR and WOD LFR is proof that the group above LFR is a niche group and blizzard has even said as much.

People don't just step up, They leave when there isn't anything to do.

[nyc81991]

Honestly I like this. If LFR is going to exist it might as well have a reason for people to do even if they are just going for set bonuses. WoW needs more things to make you want to play. They have lost too much of it.

[enchiridion]

These people would not have done difficult content anyway. Difficult content has never been more than a minority interest in WoW.

This is too blanket a statement to be true, some do more difficult content to obtain better rewards, there are definitely those who dont want anything more than tourism mode, but to say that the latter is the whole group is just false

People screen others because the content is such that they can't as easily carry underperforming players. This isn't the fault of LFR, it's the fault of the content that doesn't admit much carrying.

again this is too sweeping a generalization, i have personally experienced as well as seen in several mediums others complain of experiencing the opposite, people looking to get an alt carried or simply dont want to put in the effort, requiring 715 for normal hfc isnt what is needed to clear it, it is people looking at gear as the sole metric for the numbers that will be produced. By the same token i have seen people complain that were going to be a hindrance to a group given the highest possible dps with their gear but those are very few and far between

Ultimately, trying to stretch out game content by making it harder simply doesn't work very well.

i'm not suggesting stretching out content by making it harder, but making it easier DOES make content go more quickly, im simply suggesting that these "in between catchups" that are being suggested would be harmful

[Kickbuttmario]

Currently WoWhead has reputation gear at 850. Hope devs ignore players complaining about them being too good this time around.
http://www.wowhead.com/news=252783/l...ation-overview

If that's how ilevels are going to work, then the complaints towards LFR having tier will be minuscule for Blizzard and won't be detrimental to the overall gearing process of WoW.

By the way, what is the heroic 5 mans ilevel? Cause if its like 10 lower, then fuck it. I wish it was just 835 like LFR. That would be the perfect substitute. Have the guys who like LFR gear up through LFR, and have 5 mans be another viable method of gearing.

[shanthi]

not reading 70+ pages of previous posts, so if this is repeated my apologies. this is not a good thing, and i think Preach worded it best "there is no reason for a new player to do normal raiding if LFR offers the same rewards" (slightly paraphrased)

Yeah, but Preach is wrong. The reason to do normal (or heroic or mythic) is because you enjoy the greater challenges those modes provide. Why are you even playing the game and raiding, if that isn't the case? Why would you want gear in a game you don't enjoy playing? I raid mythic because that's the level of raiding that's fun for me--the only reason I need or want gear is to enable me to continue raiding. If I didn't need the power that gear gives, I wouldn't care about it at all. I'd be extremely dubious about the value of a raider who's attitude was, "Hey, the only reason I'm here is for mythic gear. I don't really like mythic raiding, but I can't get the gear anywhere else."

[kamuimac]

If that's how ilevels are going to work, then the complaints towards LFR having tier will be minuscule for Blizzard and won't be detrimental to the overall gearing process of WoW.

By the way, what is the heroic 5 mans ilevel? Cause if its like 10 lower, then fuck it. I wish it was just 835 like LFR. That would be the perfect substitute. Have the guys who like LFR gear up through LFR, and have 5 mans be another viable method of gearing.

you have 5 mans as more then viable source of gearing up - that 5 mans are mythic + -_- sometimes i loose hope in humankind reading those forums.

[Devilyaki]

Good my Alts will get teir again :3

[Voidism]

As long as tier gear completes gameplay of many specs I think having it in LFR is fair. I'd rather have it in (mythic?) dungeons or for dungeon currency like in wrath/cata though.

[Deleted]

I don't disagree here.


Mythics say they are "tuned" for 660 (HAHAHAHAAH....) but acceptable ilevel is 700+, check Dungeon Finder if you don't believe me.

Plz, 660 for Mythic isn't absurd, I have done 3/4 of mythics (I did auchenai with 680+ IL, because fuck you teron) with my DK blood 665 with healers that didn't know how to heal. The real problem are people clueless how to play this game and request stupid high IL for a shitty dungeon HC+.

Anyway, I am partially happy that LFR in Legion will give tier, at least I don't need to wait an entire week again to have a chance to drop a tier piece. LFR as it is now, it's pretty useless for one reason: it gives bad gear and with some afkers it is harder than normal mode (Archimonde with clueless tanks was a nightmare).

The only reason why people do LFR is to farm items for the legendary quest and someone (like myself) to test/learn a new spec before raiding.

[nekobaka]

By the way, what is the heroic 5 mans ilevel? Cause if its like 10 lower, then fuck it. I wish it was just 835 like LFR. That would be the perfect substitute. Have the guys who like LFR gear up through LFR, and have 5 mans be another viable method of gearing.

Looking like 820 ilvl. http://www.wowhead.com/legion-dungeon-journal

Some posters are speculating that heroic dungeons will return as part gearing process along with dailies to get into things like LFR and above unlike in WoD where heroics was intended to be skipped outside of doing the legendary chain. Not sure what it means about the difficulty though.

[miffy23]

for some people its not about THEM doing it, its about what the ripple effect is- if people can get rewards they perceive to be the same as a higher difficulty why would they do said higher difficulty, this coupled with the natural flow of people leaving the game (lack of interest in content, growing out of wow, higher priorities) this leads to raids dwindling and with only having one raid size for highest level content this means the number of people leaving could outweigh the number of people coming in...thus raid teams die

You're wasting your breath here. The MMO-C entitlement crowd has long since decided that all raiders were born as such, came into the game full-fledged hardcore raiders. Noone ever got into higher difficulties and more complex content by soft ingame incentive, having rewards that are reserved for only that content is elitist and bad for business, and no amount of figures detailing the crash and burn of the game ever since accessability was driven down everyone's throat will ever concinve them otherwise. Raiders are the enemy, the core system of MMORPGs is "wrong" (time+effort = reward, community needed for that effort), and if you think otherwise you are an elitist asshole that begrudges "lesser" players their "fun" of running LFR for a few weeks and then logging off to bitch about lack of content.

[chooi]

I don't disagree here.

I'm just concerned however that there won't be methods to cover the ilevel gap "BETWEEN LFR AND ACCEPTABLE INTO NEXT", like it is for current Mythic dungeons or Normal+ raids.

E.g.:

LFR/Tanaan gearing process leaves you in the ballpark of 690, let's be generous here.

Mythics say they are "tuned" for 660 (HAHAHAHAAH....) but acceptable ilevel is 700+, check Dungeon Finder if you don't believe me.

While dropping only 685 (boosted if you're lucky, but we can't count on that).

Now we have Ashran, with welfare 700-710 gear that helps bridge the gap. But we won't have that in Legion, or at least I haven't discovered any of those options yet - outside of highly rated PvP brackets.

So, with Legion LFR giving 835, and normal dropping 850, but I bet recruitment will start with 860+, what methods will we have to get into the competitive bracket?

Only Mythic+ dungeons and extreme luck?

Meh...you are comparing apples with oranges. WoD Mythics are not Legion Mythics. In Legion, Mythic Dungeons are implemented into the progression path from the very beginning in contrast to WoD Mythics that were added in 6.2 just to give people something to do. The basic Mythic Dungeon in Legion (without Mythic+) is not that hard and can be cleared with gear from Heroics and World Quests. It's higher and higher Mythic+ levels what makes it really hard at some point.

So, for non-organized raiders / casual players it will be more like:
- level up to 110
- initially gear up through Suramar questline, World Quests, Heroic Dungeons, Professions
- run the easy Mythic dungeons
- run LFR as soon as it opens
- run higher levels of Mythic+ with better gear until you hit the wall
- PuG Normal/Heroic raids
(- always: continue doing World Quests for possible Titanforged gear upgrades)

Lots of stuff to do and many options to gear up. Not even counting in PvP caches!

[badgersmashr]

even as a mythic raider, i only see tier in lfr as something that will benefit me, hooray for easier maintanence of alts.

[Aleksej89]

LFR = see how the raid content looks without any effort or guild obligations.
There is absolutely no need for LFR to be a part of the most efficient way to get starting raid gear.
LFR should give the same quality of gear as heroic 5man, or perhaps a tiny bit better.

Players who will only do LFR do not need powerful Set gear/bonuses, since LFR is all they are interested in doing.
Players who want to do normal/heroic/mythic should never have to suffer through LFR just to get gear faster.

[Zeviona]

Alts will not be a thing in Legion. Sinle artifact for 1 spec will take you 3-4 months if you are casual. And there are no cath up mechanics planned.

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What is there so super hardcore that is raid centric expansion? You got easy gold, easy epics, easy questing, easy pvp gear, easy raiding, easy dungeons... It kinda fells like there is tons of casual content.

Thats how almost the time the legendary ring takes on Live :-) Casuals will have the whole expansion to work on the artifact and alts.

- - - Updated - - -

even as a mythic raider, i only see tier in lfr as something that will benefit me, hooray for easier maintanence of alts.

Yes i totally agree, this can help a mythic raider to get the last tier piece for their 4-set! Just wish more people could see how tier set from lfr is very useful!