Tier gear is back into lfr!!

[roahn the warlock]

So play those.

I do play one of those, 8/10 years worth of the game followed this formula.

- - - Updated - - -

The thing is you nore anyone else can prove a majority underperform intentionally. I know a few people who play WoW but barely know how to play there class.

Some people just play to play.

- - - Updated - - -

The set bonus's so I can solo old content or do whatever I wish much better. The set bonus's can provide 30%-50% more dps for most classes.

- - - Updated - - -



Agreed, Wow is one of the few MMO's whos endgame has different difficultys and even more so one who rewards different at endgame. Another would be FFXIV and I personally feel they do it right. There (LFR) gear rewards good and even some quests can reward equal to higher tier raiding.

I actually wouldn't mind if gear worked like in Diablo 3, but mythic: Torment X. Should have perfect droprates. and LFR should be like .05% chance.

- - - Updated - - -

More like if anyone in warcraft is a special snowflake it's people who bitch on the internet that nerds don't drool over their gear and worship them anymore because "muh lfr".

No one cares about your gear. They never did.

I don't do LFR. I don't give a shit if they get actual tier or the garbage "tier" they put in this expansion. Doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Let me ask you something, since you seem to enjoy being an insulting asshat. Do you buy mounts from the store? Do you buy skins on LoL, or HoTs, do you get excited about skins in Overwatch?

Gear isn't about having people whisper you "Aww kewl gear, how do I get thaaaat" it's for the same feeling you get when you 'buy' some shit from a store, or from downloadable content.

Except it has the added feeling of accomplishment. This is why MMORPGs are as successful as they are. When I have a full mythic set of gear on my character that is a "Skin" that I have earned.

You can see the results of everyone looking like gods in an MMO within a week of hitting max level for yourself. These changes did one thing only, short term gains, with longterm results of boredom.

- - - Updated - - -

First of all, different colors.
And to add to that, gear looks are important, but should only be to the person him/herself. I love the intellect staff from mythic archimonde and I would love to have it on my warlock with green fire. It is a really important item and looks freaking epic, will I give a fuck if you have it? Nope. Because you are a random nobody and I couldn't care less about you, and your special snowflake flexing (if that is your thing).
Also, don't say 'Why do you want to have fancy tier sets' as if I am part of some LFR cult that wants cool gear without doing anything. In fact, I've done a lot of Heroic raiding in cataclysm/mists of pandaria, clearing a lot of tiers and even mythic SoO. I've only lost interest in WoD mythic raiding because my friends have all quitted and I don't feel like climbing up to the top again from the very bottom. I just support the inclusion of tier gear in LFR because I don't stick my head in my anus and have the 'No one else should have this item so that I feel SPECIAL' mentality. Like you do.
Do you even know what a special snowflake is? People just want tier from LFR not to be cool, just to make it meaningful and a bit fun to run it. Unlike you, most don't give (yet again) a flying fuck about flexing to others since they know damn well that it is just LFR GEAR.
And you get rewarded for doing harder work. Titles, mounts, EXCLUSIVE Mythic shoulders and helmet (And don't bitch that this isn't the case) and much more powerful gear and usually the best colored skins of weapons/armor. Not to mention that I haven't heard anyone talking about overpowered normal/hc/mythic trinkets making their way into LFR. So there you fucking have it. So many things to make you feel special.
And I am aware of solo games that do the 'reward hard work' too. I have completed all the masterpieces From has made to 100% and even gotten my Dark souls II and Bloodborne characters to max level through repeated replays.
Stop trying to get pleasure from making others' lives more miserable. No one likes these sort of worms.

Way to be just straight up insulting man. *clap* But uhh, let me tell you this, during all of MoP? I only did fucking LFR, and I -still- didn't think we deserved to have tier gear, because we didn't work for it. So next time you feel like insulting someone who has an idea about why this game gets so boring so fast for a lot of people. Check yourself.

I will never ever get a sweet mythic mount, but I don't bitch about it like you people, I accept that I am not good enough. It's a shame that in a game that had a culture and had rules and principles, it has devolved into little league baseball where everyone gets a reward. Oh, and most of "us" truely hate LFR because Blizzard forces us to do that shit, and they know full well that they do, and even if it's an easy fix, they don't change it because they know that we need to be in those runs to carry the other 20 people.

[Kickbuttmario]

You mean what you find good.

What you find good others may not. There is a reason that each MMO that has tried to repeat the Classic WoW/TBC model has failed. Take a wild guess what that reason is.

God you're a downer.

[kamuimac]

God you're a downer.

hes not wrong though - all mmos that tried hardcore aproach failed completly after first few months of their release

[Kickbuttmario]

hes not wrong though - all mmos that tried hardcore aproach failed completly after first few months of their release

Did I say hardcore? I am talking about the games in general made sense. Vanilla throughout Wrath 3.2 had design points that were connected, and the community still felt good. 3.2. came in and out of nowhere situations came in made people wonder why do i this or this now when I have this, which is easier and rewards better stuff. It's what started this whole trend. I love the difficulty approach of easy to hard. To an extent, we still have that but its approaches haven't been varied enough, at least in my opinion.

Also RIFT died about 2 years later, not few months. Wildstar died because the devs were, and I don't mean to be rude to them because I am sure they had the best intentions to that game, inept when it came to what their approach of "hardcore" was. But who knows what "hardcore' is anymore.

[Adamas102]

People enjoy playing it, but LFR isn't playing.

Using abilities and spells is most definitely playing the game and there's nothing in LFR that prevents anyone from doing that. Hell, for some people simply RPing around Goldshire is playing the game. Whatever it is you choose to do in game, you should be doing it for fun. This whole shitfest concerning gear and LFR is a symptom of people who take this game way too seriously.

[Osmeric]

Also RIFT died about 2 years later, not few months. Wildstar died because the devs were, and I don't mean to be rude to them because I am sure they had the best intentions to that game, inept when it came to what their approach of "hardcore" was. But who knows what "hardcore' is anymore.

I think RIFT lost most of its players in the first year. Most raiders didn't make it past Hammerknell.

[melodramocracy]

Take a wild guess what that reason is.

My guess is "being inundated with petulant, fickle players who probably shouldn't be dabbling in MMO's in the first place". Also, the classic WoW game structure is just as derivative of its predecessors as anything else on the market since then

[MasterHamster]

Choosing between LFRs in MoP and Legion, MoP was definitely the one that worked out the best for players as a whole. Sorry, but this whole idea "being forced" by your guild to run LFR a couple of hours per week if you're unlucky with drops in Normal+, doesn't weigh up the loss for the playerbase as a whole when LFR (which should be a source for Valor and gear for alts) becomes utterly useless like it did in WoD. The only staying power was the godawfully drawn out legendary quests, and from what I understand Legion won't have that.

Expanding on the "guilds making me do LFR"
I hope you realize that this social pressure to do something thatll help you progress will be there regardless, so if it's not LFR and instead professions give a very lucrative bonus (remember LW drums?) you'll be pressured into that instead. Taking away LFR only for raiders to see that "forced to" area moved somewhere else isn't a viable change.

[mysticx]

Now you're just moving goal posts.

I want a system that punishes abusers and rewards those who are actively participating in an encounter. I don't want a system where just showing up is the only standard for loot.

Are you even reading what I'm typing before hitting "reply with quote"?

I think Blizz wants such a system too, but it seems pretty difficult to me, there are so many factors at work...

I mean, define "Abusing LfR" and "Actively participating" in strict, literal terms, but in a way that is purely measured by the specific player's actions.

Example: You're playing DPS, but due to tank fail (Guzzling up all available healing) or healers failing in some way, you die to unavoidable damage early on, did you actively participate? No. Did you abuse LfR? No again, should you therefore be punished? I think not. But how do you determine those factors through a fully automated no-humans-involved system? Remember, there's nothing as annoying in a multiplayer game as missing out because somebody else messed up...

[Spunt]

I think Blizz wants such a system too, but it seems pretty difficult to me, there are so many factors at work...

I mean, define "Abusing LfR" and "Actively participating" in strict, literal terms, but in a way that is purely measured by the specific player's actions.

Example: You're playing DPS, but due to tank fail (Guzzling up all available healing) or healers failing in some way, you die to unavoidable damage early on, did you actively participate? No. Did you abuse LfR? No again, should you therefore be punished? I think not. But how do you determine those factors through a fully automated no-humans-involved system? Remember, there's nothing as annoying in a multiplayer game as missing out because somebody else messed up...

As long as you were doing something to contribute to the fight, dying wouldn't necessarily mean you were abusing the system or not deserving of loot. Short of the tanks dying on the pull, and then dps dying shortly thereafter, (in which case its a wipe anyways), there is still plenty of time to get some boss uptime, which you can't really get if you're just tagging the boss and then doing nothing else after that, which is what I really have issue with. I don't know the exact ways addons or logs calculate boss uptime or active time, but I'm sure Blizzard has a well to tell the difference between someone dying during a fight and someone who died during the fight but cast no spells or anything else after the pull.

They took steps to remedy people afking in BGs, people AFKing in LFR is the exact same toxic behavior, so it should be just as important.

[Jtbrig7390]

My guess is "being inundated with petulant, fickle players who probably shouldn't be dabbling in MMO's in the first place". Also, the classic WoW game structure is just as derivative of its predecessors as anything else on the market since then

Why shouldn't they be playing MMO's.

Do you not get the whole original concept behind MMO's that made them so appealing? MMO's was original made for people to have a virtual life that allowed them to escape there real life.

That's why so many was even a sandbox MMO like SWG. There is not 100% only right way to play a MMO.

[Stiven]

Makes all sense now for what will be used extra Tier 19 color they have added few builds ago.

[Osmeric]

Why shouldn't they be playing MMO's.

Do you not get the whole original concept behind MMO's that made them so appealing? MMO's was original made for people to have a virtual life that allowed them to escape there real life.

That's why so many was even a sandbox MMO like SWG. There is not 100% only right way to play a MMO.

I think it's clear that WoW attracted a large group of players who weren't interested in Blizzard's initial conception of what the game should be like, but did accidentally like other aspects of the game.

This left the devs in a bind. Do they alter their fundamental design principles to retains these players, or do they stick to their vision and lose them? Do they even know how to do the first? I think it's clear they tried to do the first, but didn't succeed all that well.

That minority of players that did like the initial design(s) are understandably annoyed that all these others didn't. But just telling those others to go away presupposes that Blizzard should have picked the second option and not changed the game.

[Jtbrig7390]

I think it's clear that WoW attracted a large group of players who weren't interested in Blizzard's initial conception of what the game should be like, but did accidentally like other aspects of the game.

This left the devs in a bind. Do they alter their fundamental design principles to retains these players, or do they stick to their vision and lose them? Do they even know how to do the first? I think it's clear they tried to do the first, but didn't succeed all that well.

That minority of players that did like the initial design(s) are understandably annoyed that all these others didn't. But just telling those others to go away presupposes that Blizzard should have picked the second option and not changed the game.

Totally agree.

Another thing is people who keep saying (Leave or this isn't the type of game for you) need to realize how bad that is for gaming. You do not want your community to shrink that is always a negative.

There is no excuse blizzard can use to justfi the lack of content and how they have handled Wow in WOD. There is MMO's that have seem to figured out a balace in endgame rewards and putting out content.

FFXIV for example IMO does its endgame really well. The gear from its "LFR" setup is not trash and quite useful and then you even got quests that reward equal to if not better then that.

Legion looks to be a massive improvement at lease for my gameplay. Like always some will be pissed but the more I read threads like this the more I see it isn't the lack of X is making some pissed. Its the fact there is now choices and others get to enjoy endgame as well.

Like really how can someone be mad because someone else got a weaker version of gear they had. If this system keeps people playing then blizzard did there job right and if that comes at the cost of X player not feeling special anymore then so be it.

I don't give two fucks if it rained legendary's and mounts. Legion is looking amazing to me and I hope it turns out that way.

The hate people have for LFR,Casuals and so on is just fucken amazing. Like why do people hate those things so much and have no logic behind why. They just hate these people to hate them.

To add I love how alot of people seem to think (X will make WoW perfect). Do they not think for one moment if it worked blizzard would do it?

/SmalRantOverBackToWoWIGo.

[emilylorange]

I think Blizz wants such a system too, but it seems pretty difficult to me, there are so many factors at work...

I mean, define "Abusing LfR" and "Actively participating" in strict, literal terms, but in a way that is purely measured by the specific player's actions.

Example: You're playing DPS, but due to tank fail (Guzzling up all available healing) or healers failing in some way, you die to unavoidable damage early on, did you actively participate? No. Did you abuse LfR? No again, should you therefore be punished? I think not. But how do you determine those factors through a fully automated no-humans-involved system? Remember, there's nothing as annoying in a multiplayer game as missing out because somebody else messed up...

I'd be more moved by this argument if Blizzard didn't think it was fine to hand out 30 minute deserter debuffs to people who have been dced or kicked from groups through no fault of their own. Seems like they feel the system works more often than it doesn't, and they're okay with that.

Tbh I was thinking about this problem yesterday and I'm wondering if players could define for themselves what 'participating' means.

Like before they queue give them a list of goals reasonable for their skill level to hit, similar to achievements, and let them choose what they want to aim for.

Damage done, debuffs cleansed, effective healing done, damage absorbed, no non-tanks meleed by bosses, no 'danger zones' stood in, maybe something like upvotes gained from other people.

Maybe over the course of the week the system keeps tracks, scores them, and delivers an appropriate loot box the next reset corresponding to what they've done.

Idk the problem is blizzard is unwilling to police the system themselves so it has to be automated and player driven :/

[Cynep]

I hope you realize that this social pressure to do something thatll help you progress will be there regardless, so if it's not LFR and instead professions give a very lucrative bonus (remember LW drums?) you'll be pressured into that instead. Taking away LFR only for raiders to see that "forced to" area moved somewhere else isn't a viable change.

This is a very good argument, but I'll counter that the biggest complaint about LFR after its effort/reward ratio is that LFR is mind-numbingly boring past 1st playthrough. There is no progression, no feeling that your team has improved since last week. You just wait for the queue to pop, then do something or do nothing - and it doesn't matter which - and wait for the boss to inevitably die and drop loot. Boring. You're not feeling like you're having real impact.

So, if social pressure "forced" us raiders into something other than into being bored to tears for a couple hours every week - it's a game! it should be fun! for raiders too! - then you'd be seeing much less whining about LFR.

- - - Updated - - -

The hate people have for LFR,Casuals and so on is just fucken amazing. Like why do people hate those things so much and have no logic behind why. They just hate these people to hate them.

I'll comment on this... Hate for LFR and hate for casuals are entirely different subjects IMHO. I'm the raid leader in a casual guild (we won't get Arch M before pre-patch unless some miracle happens). While I don't call myself a casual, there's a dozen of people in my guild who are the textbook example of a casual, they hardly play 6-9 hours a week and still have 9-10 Mythic kills.

LFR on the other hand, can be played without any schedule which is a plus, but it arguably takes more time, it's boring and it kills all other activities in game that award loot with lower iLvl. Completely different stuff to hate.

[MasterHamster]

This is a very good argument, but I'll counter that the biggest complaint about LFR after its effort/reward ratio is that LFR is mind-numbingly boring past 1st playthrough. There is no progression, no feeling that your team has improved since last week. You just wait for the queue to pop, then do something or do nothing - and it doesn't matter which - and wait for the boss to inevitably die and drop loot. Boring. You're not feeling like you're having real impact.

So, if social pressure "forced" us raiders into something other than into being bored to tears for a couple hours every week - it's a game! it should be fun! for raiders too! - then you'd be seeing much less whining about LFR.

Definitely. The biggest gripe I have with LFR, and especially in WoD where it is UNFATHOMABLY EASY, is that success is guaranteed. That's something many, many areas of the game is currently suffering from. You have to willingly sabotage for yourself or others in order to fail anywhere but organized play like Normal+ raids or arenas. And of course BGs but that's another thing.

MoP LFR was easy, but it was never as bad as it is in WoD. Barring LFR Archimonde which I saw as a breath of fresh air, the rest has been near guaranteed success as soon as players sort of got the hang of mechanics. I think LFR Lei Shen in ToT was greatly balanced. Far from a guaranteed kill even months into the patch if people didn't perform somewhat, but nowhere near hard enough to waste hours.

But WoD LFR gets even worse because the items are, at this point, good for nothing. And maybe that's what people sort of yearn for. My latest non-raiding alt hasn't touched HFC LFR, yet progressed to ilvl 714 within 36 hours /played at 100 (which is broken in itself, ain't it). LFR has no pull factor for her until the legendary q.

My point with the "doing LFR a couple hours" is that, in an MMO, you won't always have fun when progressing. There will always be ways to progress that is repetitive or feels unchallenging and disconnected. But removing these has a very high risk of causing apathy, like we got in WoD when everything outside of raids was mostly cosmetic garbage. So if such a big part in this topic, raiders feeling forced to spend time in LFR for X or Y reason, that will always exist in some form that isn't necessarily fun. We used to prepare for hours and hours a week for raids, just to stock up on reagents, any resistance buff we could get our hands on, etc.

In the end, I'd rather see a LFR tuned to be more in difficulty levels of MoP than WoD, with tier pieces to remain relevant until you can get tiers with higher ilvls in your difficulty of choice. My god, LFR Highmaul, barring Mar'gok who was overtuned to hell, was an insult to players.

[Gonder]

I honestly don't know what this changes. If these drop from the raids themselves, then what difference is there from the Warlords of Draenor LFR loot model? Warlords of Draenor raids technically had their own tier sets as well, just without the "Raid Finder" text pasted beneath their names.

[Greenmagoo]

I honestly don't know what this changes. If these drop from the raids themselves, then what difference is there from the Warlords of Draenor LFR loot model? Warlords of Draenor raids technically had their own tier sets as well, just without the "Raid Finder" text pasted beneath their names.

For those who want to collect the art of the gear it is a bonus. For organized raiders who want another source to acquire potentially very powerful set bonuses it is a bonus. For the all players who blame lack of tier in LFR for why they are not getting into progressed groups will still not get into progressed groups. Oh and queues will be more stable with more organized raiders participating in LFR.

[Lucky Fable]

I was actually hoping I could progress in legion without any raids since my work schedule is changing to shift work for the next eight months.

It kind of bums me out that I will likely be running lfr hoping for titanforged tier gear. I was hoping I could just play mythic + for my upgrades.