Heads Roll at Baylor University Over Sexual-Assault Reports

[Crissi]

Again, I don't think the university staff, as a whole, including their board of regents, is responsible enough to run intercollegiate sports at all. You don't get to cover up murder and rapes because of your desire to win at athletics and still have an athletics program. All their student athletes should be free to go wherever they want. It seems incredibly implausible that the regents didn't know about this. They only made changes after people pointed out that asking them to believe the college had 0 reports of sexual assault is not a tenable position.

Edit: To be clear, this would be to punish their boosters, which is why I think athletes should have the choice to go wherever the they want with no transfer restrictions.

SMU's punishment fit the crime. They were also incapable of running an athletics program. Widespread corruption shouldn't be tolerated. Acting like having NCAA intercollegiate sports is a right doesn't jive with me. The negative effect on their football program was, in my eyes, the intended result. And I'm guessing it was the intended result of the people who instituted the punishment at the time too, even if they later said something different.

It absolutely was not the intended result. Intention was to punish short term, not for a decade. The problem with completely killing a program is it dramatically reduces recruitment even when it comes back, and whether one likes it or not sports brings attention to a university which helps increase admition for academics.. Its why I'll never be for a death penalty. Remove scholarships, remove ability to participate in post season for a couple years, and fire the entire admin is about fine.

and no, it did not fit the crime. Bribery has been judged to not be worth a death penalty as we've seen after. NCAA knows what the consequences are now and they decided it didnt fit.

[Pangean]

If by problem, you mean least likely place in society for them to happen, yes.
The fact is, there is no rape epidemic or even a fucking problem - The gross overreach and absurd stretch of the Title IX is entirely unwarranted - There is no problem requiring 'aggressive' solution.

It's slightly less likely on a campus than on the "outside".

For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 not enrolled in a post-secondary school were 1.2 times more likely to experience rape and sexual assault victimization (7.6 per 1,000), compared to students in the same age range (6.1 per 1,000). I think any place that has rape and it's excused and overlooked has a problem. I will state I am not going to have an argument with you about your "issues" about the prevalence of rape and whether you think that's a problem. I tend to think that based on the stats presented and the enrollment of the local University of 44,000, that 244 rapes is a problem. You don't . Whatever.

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I don't object to your personal expectations. I dismiss them, for being personal.
But I realize I'm taking too liberal an approach for the US, and it's possibly just a cultural clash on my end. After all, that police roam campus is just bizarre to me, given we fought to take them out of it. So I'll leave you folks to it.

My expectations are always personal. Once again I think you are trying to make a point and maybe you think a profound one. You aren't and it's kinda nothing but you blowing smoke. Having said that you reading up on Universities in the US, and their locations and their sized might just be helpful to you. That way you can speak on whats actually going on.

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I went to UT. Huge Horns fan. Charlie may suck as a coach, and even more so as a recruiter but have to admire his cleaning up the program.

So am I reading right that Texas college football just sucks? (Ducks out of room).

[Pangean]

Except that's not true - A large number of 'victims' do not report to the police, treating the college administrators as their 'venue' for 'justice' - Which leads to actual rapists, who could have been convicted to go on and continue to rape women - Because rapists don't magically cease to be rapists because they get expelled.

My understanding of the Clery act was that they were required to so but if that is true it needs to change. And that does not change the fact that what the Universities are doing is not a replacement for the criminal procedures. Since it's clear both actions can and do occur.

[Kapadons]

So am I reading right that Texas college football just sucks? (Ducks out of room).

Pretty much. Besides TCU. Frog Power!

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For anyone who still doesn't understand why Endus shouldn't be a mod, THIS is just one of MANY examples.

I don't understand why Endus having trash arguments has anything to do with his moderation privilege.

[Shinzai]

It's slightly less likely on a campus than on the "outside".

For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 not enrolled in a post-secondary school were 1.2 times more likely to experience rape and sexual assault victimization (7.6 per 1,000), compared to students in the same age range (6.1 per 1,000). I think any place that has rape and it's excused and overlooked has a problem. I will state I am not going to have an argument with you about your "issues" about the prevalence of rape and whether you think that's a problem. I tend to think that based on the stats presented and the enrollment of the local University of 44,000, that 244 rapes is a problem. You don't . Whatever.

You're talking about sexual assault including rape, not just rape. So you're including everything in the way of unwanted touches and so on and so forth.

"The most recent study, conducted by U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics, represents a longitudinal study of US women from 1995 to 2013. For the year 2013, the study found that college aged women (regardless of enrollment status) were more likely to be sexually assaulted at 4.3 per 1,000 (0.4%) and than other women at 1.4 per 1,000 (0.1%). The study also found that the rate of sexual assault has been falling steadily since 1995, from a peak of 0.9% in 1997 to the current 0.4%. Rape, a subset of all sexual assault, had an incidence of 1.4 per 1,000 female students (0.1%) in 2013"

[Deleted]

It's slightly less likely on a campus than on the "outside".

For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 not enrolled in a post-secondary school were 1.2 times more likely to experience rape and sexual assault victimization (7.6 per 1,000), compared to students in the same age range (6.1 per 1,000). I think any place that has rape and it's excused and overlooked has a problem. I will state I am not going to have an argument with you about your "issues" about the prevalence of rape and whether you think that's a problem. I tend to think that based on the stats presented and the enrollment of the local University of 44,000, that 244 rapes is a problem. You don't . Whatever.

Of course rape is bad - But there is no College problem - Its a societal problem that has no need for any particular solutions for colleges.

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My understanding of the Clery act was that they were required to so but if that is true it needs to change. And that does not change the fact that what the Universities are doing is not a replacement for the criminal procedures. Since it's clear both actions can and do occur.

Well someone should make that clear to them.
Ed, To be clear, i don't know if there is any requirement for them to report it, or to ask the students to report it or whatever - But i know that there is a problem that real actual rapists don't get reported, and just get expelled instead of incarcerated.
So either they should make it a requirement, or if it already is, explicitly remind the colleges.

[Ripster42]

It absolutely was not the intended result. Intention was to punish short term, not for a decade. The problem with completely killing a program is it dramatically reduces recruitment even when it comes back, and whether one likes it or not sports brings attention to a university which helps increase admition for academics.. Its why I'll never be for a death penalty. Remove scholarships, remove ability to participate in post season for a couple years, and fire the entire admin is about fine.

and no, it did not fit the crime. Bribery has been judged to not be worth a death penalty as we've seen after. NCAA knows what the consequences are now and they decided it didn't fit.

Ya, I think USC and at least auburn probably should have been gone for a year too. I'm very reluctant to think that one university's athletics program decreases academic admissions nationwide, which is what we should be worried about. We shouldn't be trusting baylor/waco with having huge, popular athletic programs. It needs to be screwed, just like SMU, so the temptation for corruption is lessened; so there's no real benefit from engaging in shitty behavior, because it's clear that even the town's civil authorities aren't capable of policing the university (seriously, not even an obstruction of justice conviction for the coach that made his players lie about his murdered player, making them say he dealt drugs). It's not just this incident. It's the pattern of incidents and collusion with the civil law enforcement authorities.

[Pangean]

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.s...head_back.html
First one i could remember.

He didn't threaten - he actually cut their funding:

Must be tired because no where in that first article can I see they are suing over the burden of proof level. Feel free to point it out where they state that. And of course you cut out my actual point about the state legislature nonsense. "It's meaningless to the standard that the Universities are required to use because the state doesn't set that.

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Pretty much. Besides TCU. Frog Power!

But's its Texas dammit. Isn't it in the Texas Constitution that you must have at least one powerhouse?

[Deleted]

Must be tired because no where in that first article can I see they are suing over the burden of proof level. Feel free to point it out where they state that. And of course you cut out my actual point about the state legislature nonsense.

No, but that is one of the issues - that and the whole 'dear colleague' letter.

"It's meaningless to the standard that the Universities are required to use because the state doesn't set that.

Of course the state doesn't set the standard - But then neither does the OCR - Its not a legislative body.

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But's its Texas dammit. Isn't it in the Texas Constitution that you must have at least one powerhouse?

Its that or secession - One way or the other they will have a 'top team'.

[Crissi]

Must be tired because no where in that first article can I see they are suing over the burden of proof level. Feel free to point it out where they state that. And of course you cut out my actual point about the state legislature nonsense. "It's meaningless to the standard that the Universities are required to use because the state doesn't set that.

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But's its Texas dammit. Isn't it in the Texas Constitution that you must have at least one powerhouse?

We do. Currently its TCU. Go Froggies! (which maaaaay taint my view of Baylor lulz)

Also @Ripster42 and this is why we don't let laypeople dole out punishments. Most people tend to want more severe punishments than an offense actually deserves, both in sports and in actual criminal activity. I love ya dude, but wanting to assign the death penalty to dozens of schools because of bribery really isnt that logical when bribery isnt all that harmful. Especially when student athletes dont get to profit off their own endevors until after college. I can understand the sentiment towards Baylor, and I am borderline on it, but Im still not convinced on the death penalty.

[Pangean]

You're talking about sexual assault including rape, not just rape. So you're including everything in the way of unwanted touches and so on and so forth.

"The most recent study, conducted by U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics, represents a longitudinal study of US women from 1995 to 2013. For the year 2013, the study found that college aged women (regardless of enrollment status) were more likely to be sexually assaulted at 4.3 per 1,000 (0.4%) and than other women at 1.4 per 1,000 (0.1%). The study also found that the rate of sexual assault has been falling steadily since 1995, from a peak of 0.9% in 1997 to the current 0.4%. Rape, a subset of all sexual assault, had an incidence of 1.4 per 1,000 female students (0.1%) in 2013"

Hmm from the same report I posted earlier covering 1995–2013:


Regardless it's still an issue.

[Dextroden]

Damn. It's a shame I had to work. It's always fun to watch Endus argue in favor of punishment with no proof of wrongdoing. Makes it that much more funny that he's against punishing women who can't substantiate a rape accusation.

He didn't even touch my post for him. A pity.

[Pangean]

No, but that is one of the issues - that and the whole 'dear colleague' letter.
Of course the state doesn't set the standard - But then neither does the OCR - Its not a legislative body.

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Its that or secession - One way or the other they will have a 'top team'.

Again that's said no where in the article. And no I am not going to take your word for it. Kinda expect a cite to support a claim actually has something that supports that claim in it. Personal issue I know but so be it.

Actually the standard is set in the Dear Colleague letter as they are the folks that set the standard just like the FCC sets standards. You may not like it but till something changes legally they get to do so and Universities are required to live by that and state legislature can whine all they want and cut funds all they want but that won't change the standard.

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We do. Currently its TCU. Go Froggies! (which maaaaay taint my view of Baylor lulz)

Also @Ripster42 and this is why we don't let laypeople dole out punishments. Most people tend to want more severe punishments than an offense actually deserves, both in sports and in actual criminal activity. I love ya dude, but wanting to assign the death penalty to dozens of schools because of bribery really isnt that logical when bribery isnt all that harmful. Especially when student athletes dont get to profit off their own endevors until after college. I can understand the sentiment towards Baylor, and I am borderline on it, but Im still not convinced on the death penalty.

Lol people laugh at you when you say that out loud?

Re Baylor. I think covering up for rape is a pretty strong sign of the lack of Institutional control. Off with their heads.

[Crissi]

Lol people laugh at you when you say that out loud?

Re Baylor. I think covering up for rape is a pretty strong sign of the lack of Institutional control. Off with their heads.

I live in Ft Worth, where TCU is located, so nope no funny looks! Its normal here! Although my loyalties mean Texas > TCU, then TCU > everyone else > rock > Cruz > Lizard people > Tex AM.

and thats why im not really completely defending Baylor against the death penalty. Im never going to be for it, but I wont be upset if it happens. a severe punishment NEEDS to happen. What that is going to be is anyones guess. The NCAA is a weird organization, and the SMU and Penn State rulings have them more cautious.

[Jotaux]

I didn't think there was anyone that would put Cruz ahead of lizard people...

[Sama-81]

I have to say, that it takes some gall to even compare universities taking disciplinary actions when campus rules, ie involving actions that does not constitute a criminal offense in the least, are broken, to that of basically kicking students out as a response to, do note, unsubstantiated claims of a severe criminal offense taking place, without even bothering to let the courts handle the matter - the reason for them being there in the first place. Really, comparing the two straight off is almost on the level of a Hollywood "The Wicker Man"-remake...

[dd614]

It's about time American universities start putting more money into academics than towards a bunch of morons running up and down the field with a ball.

[Ripster42]

We do. Currently its TCU. Go Froggies! (which maaaaay taint my view of Baylor lulz)

Also @Ripster42 and this is why we don't let laypeople dole out punishments. Most people tend to want more severe punishments than an offense actually deserves, both in sports and in actual criminal activity. I love ya dude, but wanting to assign the death penalty to dozens of schools because of bribery really isnt that logical when bribery isnt all that harmful. Especially when student athletes dont get to profit off their own endevors until after college. I can understand the sentiment towards Baylor, and I am borderline on it, but Im still not convinced on the death penalty.

This is just another problem with NCAA sports. If they actually paid players there wouldn't really be as much bribery, because it would be above board. But the NCAA doesn't want to do that. They shouldn't then just accept that bribery is going to occur and give institutions with widespread corruption a slap on the wrist as far as their boosters are concerned. Changing the staff and temporarily eliminating a small number of scholarships doesn't really hurt the people at the root of the problem with bribery, the boosters; or, in the case of baylor, the local law enforcement conspiring to obstruct justice.

[hakujinbakasama]

Lots of assumptions here.

I'm going to assume not much of anything was mishandled unless I see the direct reports and codes the University uses for Judicial Review.

[nôrps]

Isn't it ironic how the same guy who wanted to scalp Bill Clinton for the Lewinski drama is scalped here for this?