How can people possibly be so bad?

[Kazuchika]

We are all truly impressed with how awesome you are, seriously too. "People are so bad, it's fucking pathetic"...what I kind of find a bit more pathetic is people who take a game so seriously, to the point where they have to make public posts about how much better they are at pressing some buttons than other people. Don't even pretend this wasn't a thinly veiled attempt at trying making yourself look awesome. At this point in WoW's history is it honestly a surprise there is a lot of people who aren't that great at raiding?

Stop taking this so serious, it's not pathetic to suck at a game. You are not awesome at every single thing you do in life.

Spoken like someone who is probably one of the aforementioned bads.

[Deleted]

You got into a shit group because you have 714 ilvl as you mentioned. The vast majority of people with 714 ilvl are either pvp geared trying to get the mount or people on alts who have no clue what they are doing. Just because you know how to play your alt doesn't mean it's the same for everyone sadly. Pugs with low requirements are terrible.

[Egregious]

I definitely agree with the sentiment that dungeons are supposed to be a learning ground and instructional part of the game in WoW. However, I think they have been a very poor teacher for a long time and, as a result, performance of a vast majority of the playerbase has not been improved with the increase in content difficulty at higher levels of PvE.

We are all truly impressed with how awesome you are, seriously too. "People are so bad, it's fucking pathetic"...what I kind of find a bit more pathetic is people who take a game so seriously, to the point where they have to make public posts about how much better they are at pressing some buttons than other people. Don't even pretend this wasn't a thinly veiled attempt at trying making yourself look awesome. At this point in WoW's history is it honestly a surprise there is a lot of people who aren't that great at raiding?

Stop taking this so serious, it's not pathetic to suck at a game. You are not awesome at every single thing you do in life.

That is such a tedious mentality. Do you think that way about other aspects of your life? I don't apologize for having standards about basic levels of ability, in this game and in many other facets of my life.

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You got into a shit group because you have 714 ilvl as you mentioned. The vast majority of people with 714 ilvl are either pvp geared trying to get the mount or people on alts who have no clue what they are doing. Just because you know how to play your alt doesn't mean it's the same for everyone sadly. Pugs with low requirements are terrible.

I'm aware. It's just sad to me that, even after linking Mythic Archimonde I got last year, people are still not convinced that I am the alt of a competent player. This kind of shit happens during every content drought and it really upsets me. People's expectations get out of control and it negatively impacts people who actually need to do content, and I'm not talking about myself here. The average Joe of WoW can't be "730+ w/ max Legendary ring" and realistically still want to do H Arch. It's absurd.

[Deleted]

I'm aware. It's just sad to me that, even after linking Mythic Archimonde I got last year, people are still not convinced that I am the alt of a competent player. This kind of shit happens during every content drought and it really upsets me. People's expectations get out of control and it negatively impacts people who actually need to do content, and I'm not talking about myself here. The average Joe of WoW can't be "730+ w/ max Legendary ring" and realistically still want to do H Arch. It's absurd.

I am 13/13 myself and still having issues getting into good groups my 722 mage. I get declined in most 725+ and actually the only way to get into a decent one is asking my 740+ friends to come help. It's quite sad indeed..

On the other hand pugs can disband any given moment after a wipe so most hosts would rather be safe than sorry.

[Fynzie]

You can't look at your feet when looking at your bar #clickerheroes

Blizzard is terrible at making people to know how to play.

[Deleted]

This implies that prestige is important. Outside of personal satisfaction--which is the reason to be doing anything in the game--prestige is a very thin commodity. If you want real prestige, get a reputation on your server for being helpful, pleasant and a great player to do something with. Outside of a very small group of people, raid kills carry very little in the way prestige. Especially at the end of an expansion.

If you want to do something, do it for yourself without the expectation that anyone else will really give a damn.

That might be what it should be happening, but its doesn't, especially for males, so the prestige of a good win is still real. However, that is the negative side of the coin, there is a positive one. Overcoming obstacles in hard mode raiding develops skills and improves a person.

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You can't look at your feet when looking at your bar #clickerheroes

Blizzard is terrible at making people to know how to play.

Wait, what should Blizzard do exactly? Do you have ideas?

[Idoru]

That is such a tedious mentality. Do you think that way about other aspects of your life? I don't apologize for having standards about basic levels of ability, in this game and in many other facets of my life.

You are welcome to your standards, the problem is that you apply them to other people.

[Thandorr]

Wait, what should Blizzard do exactly? Do you have ideas?

The standard Blizz UI (the one that 99% of players use) is counter-intuitive when it comes to raiding proficiently. One key to raiding at a high level or really at any level of success is to have ALL necessary information at a glance. The place for this in the middle of your screen. Along the same lines, it's difficult to look at your feet (whether or not you're standing in 'bad') or to take note of any necessary information (bossmods, weakauras, current health, raid frames for healers, etc) when you are staring at your hotbar to click the next ability.

While blizzard does not force players to click, they do open up new players to create bad habits by putting the health frames for yourself and your target in the top right; player buffs and enemy debuffs are also difficult to track on health frames. Looking at the right of the screen to see what debuff(s) are on you doesn't help you to grow into an AWARE raider.

These are just a few things, but the list goes on and on. They created addon-functionality so that we could customize our experience; thank green baby thrall jeebus that they did, otherwise we'd be doomed for sure!

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As for what they should do, they're putting a health/resource frame under your player's feet in Legion. That's a start, but the rest really boils down to them integrating the work of many addon creaters into the game itself, or we'll just continue to use addons that are updated and available. Pray to the gods that key addon writers and maintainers don't get bored of maintaining them!

[Deleted]

The standard Blizz UI (the one that 99% of players use) is counter-intuitive when it comes to raiding proficiently. One key to raiding at a high level or really at any level of success is to have ALL necessary information at a glance. The place for this in the middle of your screen. Along the same lines, it's difficult to look at your feet (whether or not you're standing in 'bad') or to take note of any necessary information (bossmods, weakauras, current health, raid frames for healers, etc) when you are staring at your hotbar to click the next ability.

While blizzard does not force players to click, they do open up new players to create bad habits by putting the health frames for yourself and your target in the top right; player buffs and enemy debuffs are also difficult to track on health frames. Looking at the right of the screen to see what debuff(s) are on you doesn't help you to grow into an AWARE raider.

These are just a few things, but the list goes on and on. They created addon-functionality so that we could customize our experience; thank green baby thrall jeebus that they did, otherwise we'd be doomed for sure!

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As for what they should do, they're putting a health/resource frame under your player's feet in Legion. That's a start, but the rest really boils down to them integrating the work of many addon creaters into the game itself, or we'll just continue to use addons that are updated and available. Pray to the gods that key addon writers and maintainers don't get bored of maintaining them!

In general that's how the game should be played after the player's custom configuration. They have proven they can design like that from the default interface because Heroes of the Storm for example is basically ready in terms of a UI of that sort, even though it's static, it doesn't allow changes and it might not be perfect. I believe they consider WoW to be more like a custom dashboard that the user can shape to their needs.

I find it fine, though I do see a potential for better DEFAULT UIs. It won't be an easy job though! It's not Heroes of the Storm or an FPS game that you basically have 2-3 abilities and that's extremely easy to accommodate. Depended on role and gamestyle the combinations are a lot.

[Rafoel]

We are all truly impressed with how awesome you are, seriously too. "People are so bad, it's fucking pathetic"...what I kind of find a bit more pathetic is people who take a game so seriously, to the point where they have to make public posts about how much better they are at pressing some buttons than other people. Don't even pretend this wasn't a thinly veiled attempt at trying making yourself look awesome. At this point in WoW's history is it honestly a surprise there is a lot of people who aren't that great at raiding?

Stop taking this so serious, it's not pathetic to suck at a game. You are not awesome at every single thing you do in life.

I can't believe people can be so stupid to sill use this pathetic argument.

By this logics, Shakespeare was just "writing some letters on paper" and da Vinci was just "putting some paint on canvas"

[schwarzkopf]

People are so fucking bad, it's fucking pathetic.

I have an explanation - but before I answer, do you actually want an explanation, or are you here just to whinge ?

[Deleted]

This always happens at the end of an expansion.

Player quality decreases
Average requirements increase

I used to succesfully PUG heroic archimonde with 705 ilvl in August last year, before valor points and all that crap.
Sure it was longer fight, people were usually doing ca. 50k DPS (which is what this fight requires)

But because no one really overgeared it, people actually gave a shit about tactics and target priority. The boss died np, you don't need 735, ring, 4set and 160k dps to beat heroic archimonde. It's not hard when people actually do what they should be doing.

Nowadays it's not the case. People expect you to have 725+ ilvl, thus vastly overgearing the encounter. Players that find themselves in such group, think they can just fuck off with tactics and blindly tunnelvision the boss.

Same thing happened with normal garrosh at the end of 5.4. Without 575 ilvl it was pointless to even apply (despite the boss dropping 553-559 loot), and yet, these overgeared groups were getting smeared all over the floor by uninterrupted mind controls.

I find even less competent players in mythic dungeons. I usually don't bitch about ilvl too often, taking 685's etc, or joining their groups. I mean mythic dungeons are tuned around 665 ilvl, how bad can it be.

Well... it can be. 700 ilvl rogue doing 8k DPS and standing in just about any fire he can find... what the actual fuck. I was the #1 dps, tank was #2. Those other DPS'ers were barely below tank on damage TAKEN.

[dudurududu]

people are still not convinced that I am the alt of a competent player.

Not saying you aren't but just because your main killed Archi Mythic, doesn't mean you know how to play with your alt.

[Deleted]

This always happens at the end of an expansion.

Player quality decreases
Average requirements increase

I used to succesfully PUG heroic archimonde with 705 ilvl in August last year, before valor points and all that crap.
Sure it was longer fight, people were usually doing ca. 50k DPS (which is what this fight requires)

But because no one really overgeared it, people actually gave a shit about tactics and target priority. The boss died np, you don't need 735, ring, 4set and 160k dps to beat heroic archimonde. It's not hard when people actually do what they should be doing.

Nowadays it's not the case. People expect you to have 725+ ilvl, thus vastly overgearing the encounter. Players that find themselves in such group, think they can just fuck off with tactics and blindly tunnelvision the boss.

Same thing happened with normal garrosh at the end of 5.4. Without 575 ilvl it was pointless to even apply (despite the boss dropping 553-559 loot), and yet, these overgeared groups were getting smeared all over the floor by uninterrupted mind controls.

I find even less competent players in mythic dungeons. I usually don't bitch about ilvl too often, taking 685's etc, or joining their groups. I mean mythic dungeons are tuned around 665 ilvl, how bad can it be.

Well... it can be. 700 ilvl rogue doing 8k DPS and standing in just about any fire he can find... what the actual fuck. I was the #1 dps, tank was #2. Those other DPS'ers were barely below tank on damage TAKEN.

A lot of those problems are caused because people are looking only at the ilevel and not anything else. ilevel means very little. It means very little especially when that high ilevel comes without an echievement or only a single kill (which might imply a boost) or it comes with very bad decisions in gearing, all red flags for inviting.

[BiggestNoob]

You are welcome to your standards, the problem is that you apply them to other people.

I don't think that's a problem. You might think some people are good because you think relative to yourself. Some people take a more objective approach and consider absolutes rather than their own relative capability. You can get this perspective by looking at the data (logs, meters, etc).

To say someone is bad because their performance is objectively very poor is not a personal attack. It's a statement of fact.

For instance, when you're looking to get your car fixed, do you want someone who can just barely perform mechanical fixes on a car, who does it more slowly than 90% of mechanics, and is more likely to make major errors? When you're looking to hire someone to deal with your finances or taxes, are you more interested in someone who is in the bottom 10% of their work, or someone in the top 10%?

Raiding in WoW is a hobby. Nobody can or will ever try to stop you from engaging in that as your hobby, but there are objective measures to someone's ability to do this hobby, and there are some activities that generally require a higher than average capability. Pugging is one of those things, because pugs tend not to have good coordination or a strong team ethic established over years. Everyone is basically doing their own thing, and in order for that to work, everyone actually needs to be better than they would need to be if it was a group that was working well together as a team, especially if those people don't have experience with the content. Similarly, if your goal is to 1-shot every boss and have 0 risk of ever wiping, you need an even higher level of play or experience.

When people with that same hobby look to do something in that hobby that objectively only like 40% of people can actually pull off, it's not unexpected to see people complaining about the fact that 60% of people are basically useless for this purpose, especially if those people don't filter themselves out. Imagine if I asked for help carrying a really heavy thing up 10 flights of stairs. Do you think it'd be awkward if some 12 year old girl showed up and offered to help carry something that weighs 5x her body weight up 10 flights of stairs? That's a bit like what we see in WoW raiding, hence this thread.

[Deleted]

Pugs suck. Guilds were broken by perks and trying to find a good fit is a special nightmare all its own given that you can only join one guild at a time, assuming they will let you in to start with. No thanks.

Pugs are the single worst thing in the universe i agree. How the fuck did perks break guild, leveling was removed in WoD and the rest literally don't affect you in any noticeable way?

[tangers58]

I've been attempting to pug a successful Heroic Archimonde about 10 times this week on my 714 Resto Druid. Obviously, not one of these groups have succeeded and, within them, I have encounter well over 100 unique players. I have outhealed numerous other classes with far superior ilvl to mine as well as with full set bonuses, I have been turned down from a number of pugs because my ilvl is "too shitty" or I'm "lying about my Mythic Archimonde achievement", I have seen a number of different strategies implemented. Nothing. It doesn't matter. I watch raid leaders fill the raid with 720+ players and the fucking Infernals don't die, people take 5+ stacks of Doomfire, people don't kill the Living Shadows, people don't use their abilities correctly, some people never break shackles, some people break them all at the same time despite weak healing. It's a fucking nightmare.

People are so fucking bad, it's fucking pathetic. I can now see why people pay me tens of thousands of gold to carry them repeatedly through H Arch just so they don't have to be involved in the sort of business I have regrettably involved myself in this week.

He's not even that hard of a boss.

Hmmmm... what did all those groups have in common...

[eschatological]

I agree the vast majority of raiders are not "good" at raiding. PUGs have been a nightmare for awhile. Since the split into multiple modes of raiding, there's been an influx of people who are called "raiders" but not an influx of quality. Quality continues to shrink. Part of that is because "raider vs. non-raider" was a dichotomy that pushed the latter into the former group, but there's not enough of a distinction between "normal mode raider vs. mythic raider." to push the former into the latter group.

But what was Blizzard to do? I understand their position that they felt raid content was an overly wasteful use of resources when only 1% of the population was seeing it. By adding layers of difficulty, there's more stuff to do for more players. There are whole systems in this game now that I've never even looked at (pet battles). There's so much to do now that I don't even pvp like I used to in earlier expansions. Maybe the answer is awarding more "prestige" to higher difficulties, but it's a consumer driven process. I agreed with the decision to take the regular tier sets out of LFR and replacing them with other sets (I'd even push for making the LFR tier sets extend to normal as well), but there was and is a backlash against that idea, and Blizzard is reverting it for Legion.

The disconnect, I think, is in the "commitment" of mythic raiding. People seem to think it involves being a no-lifer, when it really doesn't. I think what's truly hilarious, though, is that over the course of a tier, I raid much less than a "casual" raider. I raid 12 hours a week for a few months, and for the past 6 I've been raiding 2 a week, maybe 4 if we do an alt run, because M-Archimonde is on farm. But for those hours, especially the 12 a week during progression, I'm completely plugged in, focused, and patient while we wipe on a boss hundreds of times a week until we get it. For some, that's an unacceptable concept.

[Deleted]

In one PuG I was in yesterday, a Hunter died to Shadowfel Burst and not enough people soaked him. We had a Rogue say the usual: "You're bad if you don't use Deterr to soak that" and declared that we shouldn't be soaking the Shadowfel Bursts if they're affecting Hunters or Mages or other classes that can solo soak. Now maybe in an organised guild run that makes sense. You have voice chat, you can call out which bursts to soak and which ones to ignore. But this was a PuG - quite a large one at that with around 25 players. If 3 players get Shadowfel Burst, I'm not gonna waste time wondering if it was a Hunter or trying to figure out which one is the Hunter. It's just safer to soak all of them. It's not about whether it's a Hunter or a Mage, but what if it's a Shaman or a Druid? They cannot solo soak.

My point is that the lack of co-ordination and voice comms in the average Archimonde PuG means you need to approach the fight differently. It's easier to always play it safe. Sure, a Hunter could solo soak Shadowfel Burst but a) it's a PuG and you don't know which of the multiple bursts are the Hunter and b) you can't always expect the Hunter to do it because it could be somebody's alt and people generally aren't as proficient on their alts as they are on their mains.

That said, I definitely had a rough time yesterday finding a good group for H:Archi. I'm a 722 MW Monk with 4 set + ring (my 2nd alt) and I think I do respectable healing. In one group all of the healers were pulling around 80k HPS, but tanks weren't swapping and adds weren't dying and desecrate was slowly wrecking the raid, along with unnecessary fire stacks and untimely breaking of shackles. So it was the healers who got lambasted after the wipe, even though we had Warlocks pulling 17k DPS. In fact, in that PuG the Warlock who led the group and who was asking for 725+ geared players only was 714 item level and pulling 17k DPS. Once I realised that, I left.

I could form my own group, but I'm a terrible raid leader so if I can't find a successful group I'm not too upset. It's just a nice bonus if I actually do, haha.

[Deleted]

In one PuG I was in yesterday, a Hunter died to Shadowfel Burst and not enough people soaked him. We had a Rogue say the usual: "You're bad if you don't use Deterr to soak that" and declared that we shouldn't be soaking the Shadowfel Bursts if they're affecting Hunters or Mages or other classes that can solo soak. Now maybe in an organised guild run that makes sense. You have voice chat, you can call out which bursts to soak and which ones to ignore. But this was a PuG - quite a large one at that with around 25 players. If 3 players get Shadowfel Burst, I'm not gonna waste time wondering if it was a Hunter or trying to figure out which one is the Hunter. It's just safer to soak all of them. It's not about whether it's a Hunter or a Mage, but what if it's a Shaman or a Druid? They cannot solo soak.

My point is that the lack of co-ordination and voice comms in the average Archimonde PuG means you need to approach the fight differently. It's easier to always play it safe. Sure, a Hunter could solo soak Shadowfel Burst but a) it's a PuG and you don't know which of the multiple bursts are the Hunter and b) you can't always expect the Hunter to do it because it could be somebody's alt and people generally aren't as proficient on their alts as they are on their mains.

Aswell you could say that its okay if that mage doesnt use arcane barrage, since its his alt and he probably doesnt know about it.