Support for TPP is surrender of national soveriegnity.

[Shadowferal]

Heh Let's also add a discussion about the abomination known as a corporation.

Corporation: An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility."

[Damajin]

I'm of the opinion that support for TPP or TTIP is treason against whatever country such a person curses with their presence. But I'm not very nice.

You're nice in the correct, exacting way that true nicety requires of people. I'm not nice in the same way that you're not nice, and I'm sure others as well for both.

It's certainly treasonous, but internationalists don't owe their allegiance to any one flag and would gladly sacrifice them all if it benefitted them so we can't really count on the treason designation concerning them at all.

[Akani]

Does anyone other than Washington and Wall Street actually support this? The time that this was a wedge issue is long past I think.

Also, I'm tempted to agree with Endus. This isn't necessarily an attack on sovereignty. This is a voluntary agreement between governments, not a tyrannical order from an outside body that must be followed. It does undermine popular sovereignty in a subtle and nefarious way though. But, all things equal, public opinion polls and legislation are so far removed from one another that I believe popular sovereignty has been dead for a long while. If this goes through it's up to the voter to voice their outrage at the poll I guess.

[Pangean]

We created them and legally mandated them to behave as sociopaths? I mean that is the ultimate tragedy, we wrote the laws that made them what they are, and legally mandate them to be as such. We could write the laws otherwise, but choose not to.

Pretty much. I want a law that allows me to direct others to commit actions that kill and maim people and get off Scott free. But sadly I have a soul.

[Shadowferal]

It's certainly treasonous, but internationalists don't owe their allegiance to any one flag and would gladly sacrifice them all if it benefitted them so we can't really count on the treason designation concerning them at all.

And there goes a good reason why it all sucks.

[Akani]

Theodora is great, believe me, but EH I felt I needed a change. I might switch it out for something historical or Sailor Mars. MAYBE Boudicca? Idk.

I like both. Great Anime and a great Byzantine woman. Hard choice is hard.

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I'm of the opinion that support for TPP or TTIP is treason against whatever country such a person curses with their presence. But I'm not very nice.

Is it possible to disagree with this? We're risking turning this thread into an echo chamber of people agreeing with each other if we keep talking about things no sane person could agree with.

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It's certainly treasonous, but internationalists don't owe their allegiance to any one flag and would gladly sacrifice them all if it benefitted them so we can't really count on the treason designation concerning them at all.

I don't think the problem is globalists so much as it's corrupt corporate lapdogs pushing for corporate hegemony under the guise of globalism. They fallaciously equate global progress with the enrichment of multi-national businesses.

[Damajin]

I like both. Great Anime and a great Byzantine woman. Hard choice is hard.

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Is it possible to disagree with this? We're risking turning this thread into an echo chamber of people agreeing with each other if we keep talking about things no sane person could agree with.

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I don't think the problem is globalists so much as it's corrupt corporate lapdogs pushing for corporate hegemony under the guise of globalism. They fallaciously equate global progress with the enrichment of multi-national businesses.

They're hand in hand and more or less impossible to separate any more if there ever was any separation to begin with. Globalism was business related far before it was anything else, social or political.

[Pangean]

You're nice in the correct, exacting way that true nicety requires of people. I'm not nice in the same way that you're not nice, and I'm sure others as well for both.

It's certainly treasonous, but internationalists don't owe their allegiance to any one flag and would gladly sacrifice them all if it benefitted them so we can't really count on the treason designation concerning them at all.

Then I guess we will just have to count on the punishment for treason to raise their concern level.

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I don't think the problem is globalists so much as it's corrupt corporate lapdogs pushing for corporate hegemony under the guise of globalism. They fallaciously equate global progress with the enrichment of multi-national businesses.

When are the Rollerball tryouts?

[Damajin]

Then I guess we will just have to count on the punishment for treason to raise their concern level.

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When are the Rollerball tryouts?

Certainly but these are the intellectual, spiritual and sometimes literal descendents of the Operation Northwoods crowd so keeping that in mind is essential.

[Shadowferal]

Wall Street Journal Loves Globalization

This is why TPP’s significance lies not in its economic impact—modest for most signatories—but how it restricts its members’ domestic sovereignty.

[Akani]

They're hand in hand and more or less impossible to separate any more if there ever was any separation to begin with. Globalism was business related far before it was anything else, social or political.

They're no less inseparable than nationalism and national economic interests. Nationalism is just less all-encompassing.

The surrender of individual freedom/sovereignty in favor of the personal security that a national government provides is almost identical to the nation-state surrendering some freedom/sovereignty in favor of the national security and stability that an international government provides.

Only real difference is representation and accountability. TTP is horrible even for globalists because it represents only the corporate interests and is essentially accountable to no one to include their investors, because the risk in the market is placed on the investors and the profits are shared among the participating corporations.

It's sort of analogous to the EU at this point. Most criticisms surrounding the EU involves the power and scope of the EU council, not the accountability and representation of the EU. As above, the TTP has no accountability to or representation from the people of the member states whereas the EU does. The EU's power and scope are open to criticism and can be increased and decreased (hypothetically) whereas the TTP is a blank check of unlimited market saturation and autonomy. To put it simply, the EU has to answer to the legislatures and people of its member nations whereas there are no nations or legislatures keeping TTP in check.

TL;DR: TTP fails as a globalist endeavor because government is only nominally involved in the agreement. It's actually, and obviously, a corporate power grab using the government as a means to an end.

[Pangean]

Wall Street Journal Loves Globalization

This is why TPP’s significance lies not in its economic impact—modest for most signatories—but how it restricts its members’ domestic sovereignty.

Paywall articles suck. Got a summary or relevant passages?

[Shadowferal]

Paywall articles suck. Got a summary or relevant passages?

Paywall? Strange, it wasn't there before...dammit.

[Akani]

Wall Street Journal Loves Globalization

This is why TPP’s significance lies not in its economic impact—modest for most signatories—but how it restricts its members’ domestic sovereignty.

Next up at 11, ConocoPhillips News Network loves the Keystone Pipeline? Seems obvious the WSJ would love TTP.

[Theodarzna]

Wall Street Journal Loves Globalization

This is why TPP’s significance lies not in its economic impact—modest for most signatories—but how it restricts its members’ domestic sovereignty.

It is in essence a coup against the country, or whatever country signs it. But then again I suspect the leaders today have zero loyalty to their respective countries. Its very much a class issue here were one class has zero patriotism now, has shirked all duty to their people and will turn over the democratic institutions to a government of their making.

Globalism is more or less a new well branded tyranny.

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They're no less inseparable than nationalism and national economic interests. Nationalism is just less all-encompassing.

The surrender of individual freedom/sovereignty in favor of the personal security that a national government provides is almost identical to the nation-state surrendering some freedom/sovereignty in favor of the national security and stability that an international government provides.

Only real difference is representation and accountability. TTP is horrible even for globalists because it represents only the corporate interests and is essentially accountable to no one to include their investors, because the risk in the market is placed on the investors and the profits are shared among the participating corporations.

It's sort of analogous to the EU at this point. Most criticisms surrounding the EU involves the power and scope of the EU council, not the accountability and representation of the EU. As above, the TTP has no accountability to or representation from the people of the member states whereas the EU does. The EU's power and scope are open to criticism and can be increased and decreased (hypothetically) whereas the TTP is a blank check of unlimited market saturation and autonomy. To put it simply, the EU has to answer to the legislatures and people of its member nations whereas there are no nations or legislatures keeping TTP in check.

TL;DR: TTP fails as a globalist endeavor because government is only nominally involved in the agreement. It's actually, and obviously, a corporate power grab using the government as a means to an end.

IMHO Its a symptom of an Empire running out of new fresh loot. Dr. Joseph Tainter is someone to look into on this about complex systems and social collapse. Namely the issue for Global Neo-Liberalism is primarily that it IS global. Once there are really no new markets to expand into and no new rich markets to capture, the economy runs out of places to gain big revenue returns for the cost of expansion.

TPP/TTIP is a response to now have captured the globe and needing to try and sustain this system when it has to go from the returns from rich new market expansions to just mere annual returns. So the goal is to bilk as much cash as possible, as unfortunately there is nobody on the moon or mars who wants an iPhone or a Mitsubishi. Company's must now survive off of annual revenue and that isn't as good as the rich new returns of busting into some new hot market.

Absolutely this agreement takes the worst aspects of the EU and leaves out the Humanistic aspects and some democratic oversight. This is nothing more than a naked power and cash grab on the part of the elite businesses institutions around today.

[munkeyinorbit]

A lot of fine print in those "agreements" if you can call them that all those promises if often nothing more than snake oil and people are often not informed on purpose to get it trough as fast as possible I hope in the future that people can shred those "agreements" when they want to.

When people have a choice between cheaper consumer products, cheaper cloths and cheaper food vs not having actual slaves making those products, the majority of people turn a blind eye and prefer the consumer products, cheaper cloths and cheaper food. Slavery continues, but at least we can have cheaper stuff. What makes you think people give two shits about this "snake oil" agreements? It's just a whole bunch of wannabe hippies who are too shit to get a job and spend most of their time "educating" the population. Just remember, when your thumping the keys on your keyboard like a fucking pro, people probably died to give you the lifestyle that you have. Maybe you should actually pick a cause that matters because in the end the TPP is not going to be american ratified because Obama wants it.

[Theodarzna]

When people have a choice between cheaper consumer products, cheaper cloths and cheaper food vs not having actual slaves making those products, the majority of people turn a blind eye and prefer the consumer products, cheaper cloths and cheaper food. Slavery continues, but at least we can have cheaper stuff. What makes you think people give two shits about this "snake oil" agreements? It's just a whole bunch of wannabe hippies who are too shit to get a job and spend most of their time "educating" the population. Just remember, when your thumping the keys on your keyboard like a fucking pro, people probably died to give you the lifestyle that you have. Maybe you should actually pick a cause that matters because in the end the TPP is not going to be american ratified because Obama wants it.

Those slaves live in other countries, and its not their treasury being raided?

[Oktoberfest]

NAFTA is just like TPP and we've been living with NAFTA for years now.

Yeah, there are people who don't like NAFTA but NAFTA was a net boon for the US. Some people did lose their jobs, but overall more jobs were gained.

LOL yeah it worked out really well for the poor and middle class

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Blo...hare.png?la=en

[Karamaru]

nihilistic drivel

For so many words you really did not say anything meaningful anyway thats not what I was saying but good job at not getting it.

Those slaves live in other countries, and its not their treasury being raided?

considering these "slaves" as he calls it are often nations that either have no treasury worth raiding or they have no control over it.

[Xires]

(source)

So, an agreement that cedes a massive amount of lawmaking power to a foreign body more or less, allows a foreign tribunal to raid the treasury whenever they feel they haven't wet their beak and makes citizens and law making bodies of nations practically useless. Why not simply cast aside the US constitution and pretty much all governing charters? No need for our government to even meet or exist anymore.

Yes it is an Obama and Hillary are ALL for giving corporations power over the government and especially over the people. It makes corporations above the law and will send even more jobs overseas to 3rd world nations. Oh, I forgot- the Democrat party is supposed to be "the people's party" or some bullshit. The left doesn't give a fuck either- they just use race and gender as a way to garner female and the minority vote by spreading hate and fear i.e "the white man is out to get you". Pathetic.

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NAFTA is just like TPP and we've been living with NAFTA for years now.

Yeah, there are people who don't like NAFTA but NAFTA was a net boon for the US. Some people did lose their jobs, but overall more jobs were gained.

MILLIONS LOST THEIR JOBS!!!!!! When MILLIONS of factory worker jobs went overseas. A "few" my ass.

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The idea of "sovereignty" in the sense of "nobody can try and tell us what to do" is essentially a concept that stopped existing the moment you realized there was another nation that you couldn't grind beneath your bootheels.

This is diplomacy. I'm not a huge fan of some of the particulars of the TPP, but let's not get ridiculous and claim that a voluntary agreement between sovereign nations is somehow a "loss of sovereignty".

If you READ it you would see that it gives corporations more power and their own special "court". It allows nations to sue other nations if they believe that THAT nations rules made them lose PROFITS. It is why the top 500 fortune company's were invited to a private meeting with world leaders to help get it done. How is that you can always be so wrong yet act like you know so much?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ctual-property

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heathe...b_6598604.html

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...le-development

http://time.com/4065267/trans-pacifi...rican-workers/

http://itsoureconomy.us/occupy-the-t...orporate-coup/ <-----check that one out and learn something.


READ ENDUS!!!! READ!!!!!!!!!!! Gain some knowledge.