BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Noradin]

What? When someone says european continent it´s obviously not the european union he´s talking about.

"European", not "European continent".
The latter one isn't even a propper adjective so it is gramatically impossible to use it in cases where you need an adjective.

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Most of our dealings with the continent were with France, hence it became known as a continental breakfast.

I know, but times change...

That is why I prefer the German way of making compounds, it is easier to distinguish between a "continental breakfast" and a breakfast that is continental. (Yes, I know German uses both kinds of compounds just like English does, but which way is more common is reversed.)

[caervek]

The confusion come from the different meaning the adjective "European" can take:
It can refer to the continent, to the EU, or even to the Council of Europe.
(This list isn't even complete.)

When somebody says European they are referring to Europe, if they are referring to the EU or the Council of Europe that is usually obvious as they will say EU or Council of Europe lol.

[Kalis]

Yes, I (mostly) know the differences, just wouldn't have fit in that post to bring them up in detail.
Listing things together does not automatically imply equality between them.

Still, from the way you speak about it, I appears that you think of yourself as British first (maybe because you aren't in there right now?) if asked and bring up Kent and London only when asked for details?

I would probably say English first. There is no real difference between saying English/Scottish/Welsh and saying British, our passports all say British Citizens.

Northern Ireland is slightly different, their politics are both confusing and scary, saying you are British there often implies more than it does in the other Home Nations.

[Mayhem]

"European", not "European continent".
The latter one isn't even a propper adjective so it is gramatically impossible to use it in cases where you need an adjective.

Ok, you haven´t kept up with the discussion, not going to waste my time, just look who you´ve quoted.

[Deleted]

Stop fearmongering, it's established fact that immigration creates jobs in the long run.

Not the kind of immigrants we are currently getting.

[Slant]

Not the kind of immigrants we are currently getting.

And what kind is that exactly?

[Deleted]

I'll say the same as I did for the Scotland to leave Britain referendum.

I'll start off as saying no, no change - Convince me otherwise.

SNP/Salmond didn't convince me, I voted no.
Now let's see if I can be convinced over this.. still not even close though..

[Khuteh]

Remain. The EU has more good than bad for us.

Destabilizing the EU is high on the agenda of a certain Mr Putin and others.

Stronger together IMO.

[Dastreus]

*comes into thread*
*Sees talk of European things that have no concern on people across the pond*
*politely leaves, yet also leaves snarky emote post*

[Reklia]

That is most likely a Labour council and has nothing to do with offending people from the EU.

If a Polish person saw you hang a flag of St George he would knock on your door and ask if you wanted a flag pole made for it.

Possibly, it was too long ago I can't remember.

I've yet to have a Polish person knock on my door to offer a flag pole made, but I'll keep you posted :P

Diversity means that they come to England to experience English culture

Experience yes, but meld into our culture? Not all of them..

On similiar subject I don't mind immigration with a slow trickle, but if there's one thing that annoys me to no end its those that come here with no grasp of our language who make no effort to learn (or our ways). The latter not being genuine immigrants who are only here to take advantage of our better life, free NHS and Jobseekers allowance. Whilst we're under the EU I feel we'll never get to control our borders the way we want. There so needs to be something done with foreigners coming over here for free NHS treatment then buggering off back home.

[The High Druid]

Voting to stay. If only for the reason that I don't want it to be a complete nightmare to return to the UK with my wife, who isn't British. Loosing the freedom of movement within the EU would complicate things for us.

[Slant]

Voting to stay. If only for the reason that I don't want it to be a complete nightmare to return to the UK with my wife, who isn't British. Loosing the freedom of movement within the EU would complicate things for us.

This is funny because there is a noticeable increase in German citizenship applications by British people living in Germany. We're talking academically about the topic here, but there are a few people who are directly affected, and nobody seems to care much about them. They are small in numbers, but for them the change would be the most dramatic.

[Deleted]

And what kind is that exactly?

Mainly the uneducated masses from the ME, who quite frankly have 0 chance of finding a job in highly tech oriented countries like Denmark. They are a massive strain on welfare, uemployment and housing. Examples of this are in the news daily. They are also a massive strain on the justice/criminal system due to their massive overrepresentation in most crime statistics.

Most of the "immigration is a net + horseshit comes from a time where immigrants were much more educated and willing to work. Just wait what it looks like in 10-20 years with the current influx.

[Slant]

Mainly the uneducated masses from the ME, who quite frankly have 0 chance of finding a job in highly tech oriented countries like Denmark. They are a massive strain on welfare, uemployment and housing. Examples of this are in the news daily. They are also a massive strain on the justice/criminal system due to their massive overrepresentation in most crime statistics.

Most of the "immigration is a net + horseshit comes from a time where immigrants were much more educated and willing to work. Just wait what it looks like in 10-20 years with the current influx.

Current influx is rather low, actually. Are you sure you want to make that bet? The longer they stay, the more productive they and their children become. The longer a time frame you pick, the more it's in favour of the argument that they are a boon to the economy.

[Noradin]

Ok, you haven´t kept up with the discussion, not going to waste my time, just look who you´ve quoted.

Back to you.

[Deleted]

Current influx is rather low, actually. Are you sure you want to make that bet? The longer they stay, the more productive they and their children become. The longer a time frame you pick, the more it's in favour of the argument that they are a boon to the economy.

No they really don´t. They stay 20+ years on welfare and it´s getting worse. We now have entire municipalities with no free housing for poor, handicapped and sick because 100% have to go to refugees. Are you ignoring the factual stats which have gotten continually worse the last 15 years?

[Mayhem]

Back to you.

This is what started this discussion:

maybe you should look at your post #249 saying that russia is the largest EUropean country

You still want to tell me he maybe confused european for something when it always was either european country or european continent and not just european?

[Nigel Tufnel]

Because the UK is stronger together.
Because the UK is better together.

God, that's so subjective. If you're going to accuse others of making subjective statements while presenting them as if they're fact, then don't do the same. Just because *you* believe that Scottish independence is a bad thing it doesn't actually mean you're right.

And it is so much better when the Bank of England sets rates to help London and the rest of the UK gets shafted?

But the reason the system works for the UK is because we have fiscal and political union. The Eurozone doesn't. What point are you actually making? You think the Eurozone's problems are acceptable and sustainable?

In short...you are full of the usual Leave campaign claptrap willing to place more faith in catchy phrases than actual facts.

That the Leave campaign are relying on lies...fearmongering...racism...xenophobia...to make their case and hide their total lack of answers is disgusting in many ways...

And you are guilty of exactly the same exaggeration and misrepresentation you claim to be disgusted by. Quote me once where I've written something that could be construed as "racist" or "xenophobic". I haven't, because I'm not. I've repeatedly said that immigration is not an issue I would consider voting leave about. And even it were, it is possible to have a conversation about it *without* being racist or xenophobic. Don't be ridiculous. It's an infantile argument. Yes, call out the racists but don't tar everyone with the same brush - it's offensive and wrong.

Fundamentally, the EU undermines localised democratic process and this is my principal objection to further integration. And even if, as some people have written, they're not going to get it, then member states - specifically Eurozone states - will suffer as a result.

How does it do that again?

This is a thread on an internet forum. You want to do some proper research then go read some decent papers (written by people who hold a variety of different opinions) and make up your own mind.

E.g. democratic deficit:

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/...ic-deficit.pdf

E.g. the failure to link monetary union to greater political union (some authors calling for increased integration):

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-insti...urozone-crisis

On this specific point - the Federation of Small Businesses had a representative on Today this morning and she was very clear that her members consider the working time directive to be the "top burden" facing them. /snip

Yes, I understand the problem. I just feel that we should be able to govern ourselves without having to rely on the EU to temper the worst excesses of the Tory right and big business. Same applies to other areas e.g. employment law, anti-discrimination, data protection, energy, pollution etc. All areas where membership of the EU has benefitted the average UK citizen. The UK electorate needs to get off its arse and actually hold our own politicians to account. In my opinion, to offload that responsibility to the EU is a complete copout. Or, I guess, the alternative viewpoint is that if the Tories continue winning elections then we're just getting what we deserve?

[Blobfish]

Tariq Ali supports a Brexit
and reckons conservative party in UK could spit

Between David Cameron & Boris Johnson

Tariq Ali is a British Pakistani writer, journalist, and filmmaker.
He is a member of the editorial committee of the New Left Review and Sin Permiso, and contributes to The Guardian, CounterPunch,
and the London Review of Books.

[Noradin]

You still want to tell me he maybe confused european for something when it always was either european country or european continent and not just european?

So you can find the posts, but did you read them?
"European", an adjective, which can refer to the European continent, or to the EU, or some other things depending on context.
That post mentioned "European country". do you see any mention of the European continent there?
No? That is because it is not there and you just assumed it. Which might or might not be what was meant, but the post is ambiguous.

So apparently you did not read the posts you quoted, and then you accuse others of not following the discussion?