BREXIT - leave or remain?

[Slant]

I understand, don't worry.

Look, I know it sounds insane and is counter to common sense and the real world but we were talking about an EU country that was in need of humanitarian aid, which was an absurd situation.

Yes, but these people need to understand that economy is not about actual paper notes printed in a press. Money has to come from somewhere. It's kinda like a zero sum scenario. If you pump 3 digit billion Euros into Greece, it's missing somewhere else in Europe. We're actually willing to do that, that is not even the problem.

The problem is that for the EU (and Germany and France) to even consider this an option, we need a fiscal union in the sense that taxes are regulated and enforced by the party that gives out this kind of money to countries without conditions. If I'm in a position to having to just hand over money because someone needs it, I'd like to make sure myself that these situations don't happen too often. This means every single country would have to let the EU regulate taxes. And this is one of the actual core values of what makes a country, the right to tax your people. They're literally asking for the European Union to be one big step closer to being an actual country by transfering that kind of sovereignity to the EU. Bringing their country in even bigger dependence on Brussels. And as soon as someone even dares suggest this, he's called all kinds of names by the anti-EU faction. :P

It astonishes me that this isn't common knowledge...

[Deleted]

If Germany isn't the private bank of the EU why are they giving loans out willy nilly like a bank and want their huge interests back?

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The Issue is complicated. Short end of it is: EU regulations made it very easy for Polish and other Eastern Europeans to basically oust the working class of Britain.

Hahh let me ask something... How is it possible those foreigners (including myself) were able to find job and live? Even if most of them have/had issues with the language? The truth is your "working class" lazy and bad workforce. And not I say that, english companies said that
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/bosse...h-7190927.html

[apepi]

The pound is 1.33 of a USD. As an American, that makes it really easy to remember. 3 Pounds=4 Dollars.

[Lord Berserker]

Hahh let me ask something... How is it possible those foreigners (including myself) were able to find job and live? Even if most of them have/had issues with the language? The truth is your "working class" lazy and bad workforce. And not I say that, english companies said that
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/bosse...h-7190927.html

Because you're cheaper. That's why.

[alexw]

I thought that the governments should have set up training programs to help with the transition. Did they just leave you in the dust with nothing?

More that there has been no efforts by gov whatsoever to increase the number of houses being built. They say they are doing so but the truth is a different matter entirely. Building houses to meet need would substantially devalue the home values of current homeowners, mainly the over 50's, who vote in exceedingly high numbers. So the gov just lies about it and does nothing, and instead uses that asset price inflation as way to bribe those older voters. And if housing isn't being built then there is no need to train people to build houses.....

Oh and here is the number of housing completions by year in the UK. Now call me crazy but you'd expect the number to be rising if more houses were being built.....

[Triks]

Yes, but these people need to understand that economy is not about actual paper notes printed in a press. Money has to come from somewhere. It's kinda like a zero sum scenario. If you pump 3 digit billion Euros into Greece, it's missing somewhere else in Europe. We're actually willing to do that, that is not even the problem.

The problem is that for the EU (and Germany and France) to even consider this an option, we need a fiscal union in the sense that taxes are regulated and enforced by the party that gives out this kind of money to countries without conditions. If I'm in a position to having to just hand over money because someone needs it, I'd like to make sure myself that these situations don't happen too often. This means every single country would have to let the EU regulate taxes. And this is one of the actual core values of what makes a country, the right to tax your people. They're literally asking for the European Union to be one big step closer to being an actual country by transfering that kind of sovereignity to the EU. Bringing their country in even bigger dependence on Brussels. And as soon as someone even dares suggest this, he's called all kinds of names by the anti-EU faction. :P

It astonishes me that this isn't common knowledge...

That's indeed the problem, however, I don't think the EU is ready for such a union. At least for the time being, it is better to remain as a federation.

[Deleted]

Because you're cheaper. That's why.

Cheaper than the national minimum wage? Wow...
No offense, but based on MY experience, you guys are terrible workforce... Slow, lazy and dumb, lack of knowledge even basic things like biology, physics, math, hell sometimes even your english is terrible (writing tee to the tea filters box...sigh..) Getting "sick" all the times after payday, smoking funny smokes and using magic mushrooms is a national hobby...

[Noradin]

Sorry but "enforcing" something you think its good, on others w/t their permission or content (like your country is doing to the rest of the EU), is kinda sad. Europe can't continue existing like this.

I think you mean "consent" and yes, they have that for all decision made in the framework the EU provides.

[Deleted]

To be honest it makes sense.

Corbyn literally does nothing but be a wet blanket. His Avant garde stance was basically "I am miffed at the Queen and bum her out a bit and do nothing for my term"

It's a shame that its taken the Brexit for the Labour party to realise that turning itself into the LibDems-Lite was going to alienate the working class voters who made up the core of Labours power.

The failure of the Labour party is the reason that right wing parties such as UKIP have come to power in working class areas.

[Triks]

More that there has been no efforts by gov whatsoever to increase the number of houses being built. They say they are doing so but the truth is a different matter entirely. Building houses to meet need would substantially devalue the home values of current homeowners, mainly the over 50's, who vote in exceedingly high numbers. So the gov just lies about it and does nothing, and instead uses that asset price inflation as way to bribe those older voters. And if housing isn't being built then there is no need to train people to build houses.....

Oh and here is the number of housing completions by year in the UK. Now call me crazy but you'd expect the number to be rising if more houses were being built.....

So they took away your jobs and left you hanging. No wonder you guys are so pissed off. From what I also saw from digging around The Guardian and The Daily Mail you also don't have a left-wing party that defends your interests. I guess the fact that mostly 50+ turn up to vote you have Tory governments.

Why didn't you guys try to find work in, say, Germany or The Netherlands then?

[Deleted]

Because you're cheaper. That's why.

If British Workers were worth their wages they would not be getting replaced. British workers are less productive then their counterparts and demand more payment, benefits.

[Shalcker]

well personally I don't care for free trade. exports are less than 30% of my business.

But just to point out.. the EU is the only trading block that has this crazy idea that free trade requires free labour movement... how does every other market manage to have free trade with each other without free movement?

Seems as long as you're not dealing with the EU you can have your cake and eat it. But when it is the EU you can have a cake.. but its the EU who gets to eat your cake while keep their own.

It's because EU is run by Germany and Germany has to keep their labour costs down for their export economy to remain competitive. They keep their wages suppressed and do not get enough growth in domestic demand to offset balance of trade gains.

...and they fight tooth and nail against everything that might threaten their model.

[Triks]

It's because EU is run by Germany and Germany has to keep their labour costs down for their export economy to remain competitive. They keep their wages suppressed and do not get enough growth in domestic demand to offset balance of trade gains.

...and they fight tooth and nail against everything that might threaten their model.

Germans are some of the best-paid workers in the EU. Please stop.

[Slant]

It's because EU is run by Germany and Germany has to keep their labour costs down for their export economy to remain competitive. They keep their wages suppressed and do not get enough growth in domestic demand to offset balance of trade gains.

...and they fight tooth and nail against everything that might threaten their model.

/facepalm

I'm giving up... I cannot compete with you lot anymore. I mean, you literally invent any kind of stuff to twist the narrative so it suits your personal world view. You don't even care how the world works, you just invent fairy stories and sell them as fact. It's ridiculous how often I've read that "Germany runs the EU". When was the last time Germany actually ran the EU? If we ran the EU, would we have to call for summits and have an EP that is largely comprised of non-Germans to need to ratify EU legislation and guidelines?

Sheesh...

[alexw]

What do you think Germany is, the private piggy bank of the EU? At which point in history did Germany ever give the impression that they would like to do welfare for the European continent?

Talk about delusions...

And that is completely ignoring the point. For the eurozone to function it must have fiscal transfers. It's not a maybe or a possibly but a statement of fact. A currency zone creates imbalances between regions which then need to be ameliorated by fiscal transfers. If that does not happen you simply send parts of that zone into permanent depression. Make no mistake about it southern europe is in such a state. There will be no recovery for them EVER under the euro if those fiscal transfers do not occur. Just look at some of the statistics. Italy's economy is smaller than it was 16 years ago! Spanish unemployment over 20% for 8 years running!

And yes Germany bears 100% the responsibility for this. They want the advantages the euro brings them without undertaking the fiscal transfers that should come with those advantages to make the system work. That is pure selfishness which neither Germany or Germans like you will own up to. So either make those transfers or dismantle the euro and watch as the new German Deutschmark shoots up in value and unemployment skyrockets. Don't do what you are doing now which is declare economic war on half the continent.

[Noradin]

By giving he means: "We lent them money with a friendly interest rate"

They are making profit with multiple ways.

No, they are not, the interest rate is very, very generous towards Greece.
It is way below inflation even. It is basically a monthly gift of even more extra money.

[Slant]

And that is completely ignoring the point. For the eurozone to function it must have fiscal transfers. It's not a maybe or a possibly but a statement of fact. A currency zone creates imbalances between regions which then need to be ameliorated by fiscal transfers. If that does not happen you simply send parts of that zone into permanent depression. Make no mistake about it southern europe is in such a state. There will be no recovery for them EVER under the euro if those fiscal transfers do not occur. Just look at some of the statistics. Italy's economy is smaller than it was 16 years ago! Spanish unemployment over 20% for 8 years running!

And yes Germany bears 100% the responsibility for this. They want the advantages the euro brings them without undertaking the fiscal transfers that should come with those advantages to make the system work. That is pure selfishness which neither Germany or Germans like you will own up to. So either make those transfers or dismantle the euro and watch as the new German Deutschmark shoots up in value and unemployment skyrockets. Don't do what you are doing now which is declare economic war on half the continent.

I've addressed the fiscal transfer problem, should I wait until you catch up with the thread?

[Deleted]

I am not speaking about the Poles. Didn't your governments give you training programs so they can convert you from, say, steel workers and miners to accountants and brokers?

Absolutely tonnes of that shit that many people turned their noses up at for decades. I'm half way through my working life and from the demographic that includes many that complain about the educated not being in touch and being privileged. People of my age could have all had a totally free ride through University if you were from the "working class". And at a time when soft degrees were less of a "thing".

We still have to import nurses, physios and OTs hand over fist despite having provided free tuition and bursaries for training in those professions for years (its changing now though in that the bursary is sadly being slashed).

[Ulmita]

No, they are not, the interest rate is very, very generous towards Greece.
It is way below inflation even. It is basically a monthly gift of even more extra money.

No. The interest rate is above what Germany borrows it for. They are making, it just they aren't making as much as they could. These are not free money, these are loans, get over with this.

Lastly, Germany has made over 100bln since Greek crisis started just because of the interest rates. It was in Germany's and in whole EU interest to keep Greece in EU and its in Germany's interest to not improve situation as it is considered and will be considered the place in Europe to invest money.

They might be fascists but they are not stupid.

[Baal1373]

More that there has been no efforts by gov whatsoever to increase the number of houses being built. They say they are doing so but the truth is a different matter entirely. Building houses to meet need would substantially devalue the home values of current homeowners, mainly the over 50's, who vote in exceedingly high numbers. So the gov just lies about it and does nothing, and instead uses that asset price inflation as way to bribe those older voters. And if housing isn't being built then there is no need to train people to build houses.....

Oh and here is the number of housing completions by year in the UK. Now call me crazy but you'd expect the number to be rising if more houses were being built.....

In Romania, what you'd call gypsy country, even our incompetent gov. has a program which would roughly translate to eng : First house program. It basically means that young people, up to 35 but I might be wrong, if they pay a monthly fee into the program for 2 years are entitled to a loan up to 100.000 Eur (might be wrong but somewhere along those lines) . The gov. basically guarantees for the banks that this individual is capable of paying back a loan. forgot to mention that this creates supply, because construction workers can roughly gauge the amount of people looking for house in short-term.

I live in Cluj-Napoca, which is a huge student hub here, flats are being built like crazy. There is a shortage of housing, mostly because the city has 300.000 inhabitants during the summer, and during university year it jumps up to 450k. But still, if we can do it, the UK should be able too.

I've followed the news on Brexit, and just read the article on BBC news reality check which said that everything the Leave campaigners have said is nothing close to the truth. From the immigration, to NHS, to trade and everything between. I was gutted when I heard that the UK voted to leave, personally im a huge anglophile, even had plans to move to Newcastle to study Economics.

Anyway, too bad guys.

Edit.