Legion: the Diablo 3 expansion

[Nayura]

I really like the model they are gearing towards!

[Mawnix]

Pretty sure we've had several threads since the expansion's announcement stating the same thing.

People are aware of it and.. don't care. I've seen far more people encourage it rather than disdain it. Lol.

It also looks like your purpose with this thread has backfired on you, which is even more hilarious.

[Leih]

replayability is the opposite of depth and things to do...

No it's not. Depth can create replayability.

Just like taking the trash out everyday, doesn't make it more exiting then just doing it once a week. It just gets more and more annoying!

If you don't enjoy the gameplay in WoW (it's equivalent to taking out the trash?) I'm not sure why you are playing. The fundamental gameplay of WoW has barely changed since ever. I quite enjoy the gameplay - doing dungeons, questing, raiding, pvping, etc... and I'm happy to get more reasons and rewards to do these activities.

If they wanted real depth go for a dynamic/reactive world

This is not going to happen in a theme park MMO. Perhaps WoW is not the game for you?

[Maudib]

He does have a point though. A system like this could cause less content with the illusion that it is giving more. But we will have to wait and see until the Legion major patches. It could as well open up the door for new content.

Normal, Heroic, Mythic and now infinite CMs... some are actually buying this a "more content'.

I don't mind any of the change... I will play for 2-3 months and then bail. Come back end of expansion and consume what little patch content was added and take advantage of catchup mechanisms.

I am sad that WoW the MMO is gone... I really enjoyed having "a game" to invest and lose myself into. But if WoW is now a one and done expansion based game... I can enjoy it for a couple months and move on.

[Deleted]

No it's not. Depth can create replayability.



If you don't enjoy the gameplay in WoW (it's equivalent to taking out the trash?) I'm not sure why you are playing. The fundamental gameplay of WoW has barely changed since ever. I quite enjoy the gameplay - doing dungeons, questing, raiding, pvping, etc... and I'm happy to get more reasons and rewards to do these activities.



This is not going to happen in a theme park MMO. Perhaps WoW is not the game for you?

1) Depth may create it, but the other way round doesn't work! So just because it's more repetetive, doesn't make it deeper.

2) I enjoyed the gameplay in WoW up to cataclysm, after that there were many things I dislike but weren't at any real detrement. But this RNG on RNG on RNG Bullshit that affects EVERY BLOODY PART OF THE FKING GAME makes me HATE the gameplay, because I can do everything once and save my money for the next 3 to 4 months. And that's not how an MMORPG with subscription SHOULD work!
If i wanted endless repable content with RNG on RNG on RNG Items, I'd play Diablo.

3) Well since Everquest Next is shutdown, WoW is my only hope for such a MMORPG. Well outside of hoping some private servers find a way to make it work.

[Deleted]

8. Ability Pruning 2.0 - the number of class abilities is now much more in line with the amount that D3 has.?

Erm, lol?

/10chars

[Leih]

3) Well since Everquest Next is shutdown, WoW is my only hope for such a MMORPG. Well outside of hoping some private servers find a way to make it work.

I mean, WoW has always been about grinding and running the same things over and over to level up/gear up/etc. Whether it's grinding dungeons and daily quests or running raids week after week. There's never been dynamic content or real variation and depth in the gameplay.

I think for that kind of thing your best hope is probably looking at some of these open world kind of games that are very player driven... but those sort of things are still in their infancy in general I guess. There aren't many especially good ones yet. I think hoping on WoW for this is not going to lead to much but frustration though

[Deleted]

I mean, WoW has always been about grinding and running the same things over and over to level up/gear up/etc. Whether it's grinding dungeons and daily quests or running raids week after week. There's never been dynamic content or real variation and depth in the gameplay.

I think for that kind of thing your best hope is probably looking at some of these open world kind of games that are very player driven... but those sort of things are still in their infancy in general I guess. There aren't many especially good ones yet. I think hoping on WoW for this is not going to lead to much but frustration though

Yes, but they are going far far beyond it just being because you want levels/loot... they take all possible goals away from you, in the hope you will play longer. Which people with half a brain won't do. Because why literally waste hours of my life for nothing? "Wasting" 4 hours on a raid night so I might get that cool Tier Piece, hell yeah! Wasting 4 hours on a raid night so I might the the Tier Piece, which needs to roll atleast +25 iLevel to replace my current Item? Why bother... The chance of getting it is tiny.

Well Blizzard back in the days were the people who drove some things forward and did things others wouldn't dare to do.
But yes, probably a private server will offer it before Blizzard even realizes the potential.

[Allenseiei]

Last year, we first saw a couple of elements that seemed to resemble Diablo 3. Back then, I didn't think too much about it. But after looking at Legion as a whole today, I believe that Legion has been designed with the Diablo 3 principles at a fundamental level.

How is Legion a D3-style expansion?

1. World scaling system - this is actually taken from Diablo 3. As you level your character in Diablo 3, so do the mob levels (e.g. leveling from 16 to 17 you go from Normal (16) to Normal (17)).

2. PvP Neglect - ever wondered why Legion PvP felt so neglected? Jay "Shut Up PvP Guy" Wilson is now a lead game designer in World of Warcraft and in a past interview, he explains his opinions on PvP in WoW: "we are never going to allow, at least over my dead body, the PvP game to wag the tail on game balance ... even the amount that PvP can alter the PvE game in WoW is unacceptable to us". These are the types of devs who have now moved to WoW.

3. Legendaries - we now have a bunch of legendaries in Legion with passives that buff a skill and are low drop rates from mobs. These legendaries have been designed by the same person who was working on legendaries in Diablo 3: John Yang

4. Titanforged - items now have a much higher variance in potential power (e.g. 820-900 drops in dungeons). This is more in line with D3's loot system where loot drops have very high variances in stats. Jay Wilson also prefers things that double your player power rather than small damage increases: "...0.1% doesn't sound very awesome. So for us it's like no, it's a big number, it's 25, 50, 100% more. Whatever number basically sounds cool when we get it."

5. Mythic+ Dungeons - direct copy/paste of Greater Rifts in D3. Keystones required to enter. In D3, the damage and HP increases by 17%, in WOW it will be 8%. Both have "random" elements in an attempt to keep the content engaging: random maps/pylons/elite affixes in D3 and random affixes in WoW.

6. Treasure Goblins - I mean Treasure Demons... well you get the hint.

7. Paragon Leveling - introduced as Artifact Power in Legion. The artifact skills are the Paragon skills.

8. Ability Pruning 2.0 - the number of class abilities is now much more in line with the amount that D3 has.

9. World Quests - effectively the Bounty system in D3.

10. Wardrobe - copy paste from D3's wardrobe.


Who is responsible?

1. Jay Wilson - Jay Wilson was the Game Director of Diablo 3. He has since stepped down from Diablo 3 after Diablo 3's failed launch. The game required a complete redesign for its expansion. Given his prior stature at Blizzard, I believe that his voice would have considerable influence within the WoW team and has played an integral role in shaping Legion. He was even on the panel of 6 at Blizzcon's WoW Q&A last year.

2. John Yang - D3 game designer mostly responsible for items in D3. He has since moved to WoW to work on the legendaries there.

3. Jon Vo - D3 class designer has moved to Legion.

4. Other D3 devs - it is speculated that a potential D3 expansion has since been cancelled, other D3 devs have left, thus leaving the remaining D3 devs out in the open. It would make sense that these devs would move over to WoW and assist with the creation of Legion.


I like D3 for what it is: an item hunt. But when you apply these same principles to an MMO like WoW, it begins to distort to core gameplay experience in an MMO.

Do you feel that Legion has been fundamentally designed with D3 principles? Or are these occurrences just coincidences?

1. Scaling characters was already taken into account in many other MMO's and they recieved a positive response. So why is this a bad thing?

2. WoW was a PvE centered MMO and always will be. It's good desing to not let pvp interfere with pve. It results in better gameplay for both sides.

3. I agree that legendaries are not necessary. These items where made for the non raiders in mind even though they are the least affected.

4. This is false and you are fearmongering. Titanforge is a 10 increased ilvl chance. It was bugged before in alpha/beta.

5. Why is this a bad thing? Its a great alternative for people who prefer smaller group content.

6. It's inconsecuential to the game. It's the same as any other type of creature imported from other games. For example felhunters were imported from starcraft.

7. This is bullshit. Fearmongering once again. Artifact skills are not even close to paragon skills.

8. Ability pruning with the concept of making harder encounters since players don't have 14 button rotations. Most abilities pruned are almost inconsequential and usually only happen in PvP. Most of these design choices were made because of class homogenization and because they don't want people to be able to counter all possible scenarios.

9. An amazing system.

10. Wardrobe is hardly new in the MMO genre and i don't even know why are you complaining.


Many of the things relate to diablo but are not bad things. You are just a fearmonger who wants blizzard to cater to your tastes.

[Deleted]

4. This is false and you are fearmongering. Titanforge is a 10 increased ilvl chance. It was bugged before in alpha/beta.

Source? /10char

[Deleted]

I'm completely fine with all of this, especially the PvP part to be honest. I personally agree with what he had to say on the matter too.

[Deleted]

The Leader of a team is the one responsible for the team. So people blaming one dev is entirely okay, if this dev is in a LEAD role.

Sure but there is more than one leader on the WoW development team. You cannot blame on Team leader of multiple for the negative aspects of the game. But that is just my opinion.

[Deleted]

Sure but there is more than one leader on the WoW development team. You cannot blame on Team leader of multiple for the negative aspects of the game. But that is just my opinion.

Well if all the things he gets the blame for fall in his field, yes you can blame everything on him and the people who should check what he's doing.
If the "Lore Lead Designer" gets blamed for pvp, yes that's silly... but change the dev and they are probably still "right" with their critque. So rather then harping onto the "you blame the wrong person" shit, argue the point :P

[Deleted]

I wish they added more than that.. For example the ultra fast powerleveling to max level. It's hilarious how blizzard insists on making legacy leveling slow. I started playing WoW after wod launch and I never felt more bored in my life trying to level my first character from 1-90.

[lunchbox2042]

A lot of this stuff sounds like it's designed to keep me entertained throughout the expansion instead of getting bored after 2 months.

[Allenseiei]

Source? /10char

I am in the beta and have titanforged items that only scale 10 ilevel since the few several patches in the last weeks. There are people who still keep the old titanforged items since blizzard doesn't delete them. New ones are +10 ilvl increase and warforged is +5 ilvl increse.

[Seefer]

#1 no shit, it took you this long to see it? And I say GOOD!

#2 pvp should not impact pve scaling so again......I say GOOD.

[Deleted]

A lot of this stuff sounds like it's designed to keep me entertained throughout the expansion instead of getting bored after 2 months.

Will you still do the world quests after you have done each and everyone of them a dozen times? I think they claimed about 200 of them, spread over the 5 zones that makes 40 per zone. Do the math on when you have done every single one of them at least twice... Still sounds like you will not be bored with these?

- - - Updated - - -

I am in the beta and have titanforged items that only scale 10 ilevel since the few several patches in the last weeks. There are people who still keep the old titanforged items since blizzard doesn't delete them. New ones are +10 ilvl increase and warforged is +5 ilvl increse.

Or maybe you just have bad luck? Sorry, but without any confirmation other then, I personally don't get any higher, I will still believe in the +75 iLevel max.

[mkultra55]

None of these things sound bad to me. Plus, how is it a bad thing that WOW is taking elements that were added to D3 which saved the game after it's horrible launch?

[ComputerNerd]

Is something bad just because it has come from diablo ?
No.

Yet that is what you spend most of the time trying to say.
Are they actually bad ideas, or do you want to hate on them for that stupid reason.

Look at how there were demands for more void storage, which would never have been satisfied with any reasonable finite amount.
Hence the Wardrobe for instance.

If you look close enough there are plenty of people highlighting the restrictions in it which are very different to how it is implemented in Diablo, but you will ignore that bit as it doesn't suit your argument.
And collections for pets and mounts were present for a long time before this latest addition, and sharing many ideas with those.
Therefore why is it necessarily Diablo that is the primary or sole reason for the Wardrobe.