Mythic Raiding: what does it take?

[Deleted]

Humility doesn't really mean anything above a certain level.

You are absolutely wrong. Being humble is always a positive. The only chance your argument has is if you don't understand the textbook definition of humility which does not refer to cowardice or weakness.

[classic username]

20 people i think

[BiggestNoob]

You are absolutely wrong. Being humble is always a positive. The only chance your argument has is if you don't understand the textbook definition of humility which does not refer to cowardice or weakness.

No, it's not. Every definition of humble implies submissive or weak.

People like to claim that it's a strength because someone who's humble never offends other people, but really that's a completely worthless trait to have. The very definition of competition is antithetical to humble, and the best of the best of anything are always going to be competitive, so that's a trait that's highly negatively correlated with capability.

[Deleted]

No, it's not. Every definition of humble implies submissive or weak.

That's your wrong opinion. To understand why you are wrong you have to think about what excessive egoism can do. It practically blinds the person, and that is weakness.

[Raiju]

That's your wrong opinion. To understand why you are wrong you have to think about what excessive egoism can do. It practically blinds the person, and that is weakness.

Having an ego to other players does not negate you being introspective.

And until you get to a level that you are with players who both understand your class & can at a minimum analyze (and ideally perform, but not necessary) play, it's very difficult to get much improvement other than by being introspective.

[BiggestNoob]

That's your wrong opinion. To understand why you are wrong you have to think about what excessive egoism can do. It practically blinds the person, and that is weakness.

It's not an opinion.

Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

Meekness. Not prideful. To have no pride is to be weak.

Showing deferential or submissive respect: a humble apology.

Low in rank, quality, or station; unpretentious or lowly: a humble cottage.

Submission or weak.

not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive

Not assertive is the same as not prideful, and having a lack of assertiveness is submission or weakness.

reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission <a humble apology>

ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : insignificant, unpretentious

not costly or luxurious <a humble contraption>

I could probably grab a few dozen more definitions, but those are fairly authoritative. Note: lacking humility is not the same thing as arrogance. Certainly someone who is actually arrogant is not humble, but you can be both not humble and not arrogant at the same time. Someone who has confidence and asserts their capability is not going to be humble, and as arrogance is by definition subjective, they're going to appear arrogant to people who aren't roughly equivalent to their capability. In all but the most extreme cases, the difference between the two is only something that experts are really able to discern.

[Deleted]

Having an ego to other players does not negate you being introspective.

I support that. I said above that some ego is a positive. I'm arguing that humility is a positive.

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I could probably grab a few dozen more definitions

Don't let intellectualization hijack the subject by finding rare definitions usually based on religious texts to seemingly support your position. Stick to the meaning of the actual concept, not conflicting dictionary definitions. Being excessively egotistical can blind you and that is a negative, dictionaries or not that is true.

[Deleted]

I'm sure nobody implied Mythic raiders have to be meek or submissive, haha. It probably just meant: "Don't be an arrogant prick." Too much arrogance or egotism is definitely a bad thing. It's good to be confident in your skills, but it's also good to understand that there will always be room for improvement, no matter how good you already are. That shows that you understand your actual skill level and you understand the ways in which you can become better. It also shows that you understand you are not infallible. Even good players can trip up, make mistakes and miss things. Being able to acknowledge your own mistakes is important in raiding because if you screw up and the raid leader asks: "So who did that? What happened?" and is met with silence that isn't helpful.

[Racthoh]

you need a group that will stick through a ton of wipes and bad pulls. and you need people who aren't going to die with their eyes glued to their meters.

[Varaben]

This is more for amusement or academic curiosity than for a working blueprint, but I was wondering about what some people feel are the key components to being able to defeat Mythic content. For example, if you had a group of raiders dedicated to the concept of beating mythic, even if it took a few months, is it feasible, or is it something where if, there is no reasonable success in a few weeks that it likely wouldn't happen?

How much of a weekly time commitment would a group need to complete mythic before the next raid tier for example?

I would especially like to hear from folks who had challenges on the way to completing Mythic raids and beat them, or if they couldn't, what felt like the major roadblocks to success?

Thanks for the feedback.

I think the biggest thing it requires is for people to learn from their mistakes (and not being afraid to ask questions/look stupid), know their classes/the fights, and not get frustrated when wiping.

I've not been in a guild that progressed in Mythic in a reasonable timeframe, so I'd say it takes at least 2-3 nights a week, for around 3 hours a night. A great guild could do it in 2. But you also have to be prepared for the raid, be geared up, which takes time. Having more gear certainly greases the wheels, but it's not sufficient to beat the encounters typically.

[Zka]

Great skill and even greater tolerance for frustration and repetition. I'm amazed of anyone who can bear that longer than a few months.

[OrcsRLame]

Drive. Assuming you have the necessary manual dexterity and the capacity to understand simple concepts, the rest of it simply comes down to drive. If everyone truly desires to win and they'll do whatever it takes, that is enough. I'm not sure what the minimum time required for this would be, but I know there are many 2 day a week raiding guilds that have cleared 13/13 mythic.

[Deleted]

Very simple - it only takes people to put the mental effort of self-analysing their mistakes and the mistakes of others and constructively communicate towards problem solving. It literally takes an evening or two to go through all the quirks of a bossfight. Many mythic bosses can be killed in just a few tries.

The problem is that there's always a number of people who don't put in the effort, don't care or can't perform well enough and the ratio between "bad raiders" and "good raiders" will directly determine your progress. Very often kills only happen when the boss mechanics simply happen to only affect the "good raiders" and the "bad raiders" don't get a chance to fail.

The most straight up way to have raid success is to not look at your tactics but look at your raiders and replace the bad ones. Yes it's harsh and often feels bad because they're amazing people. But you have to decide if you're casual or hardcore - if you're casual then keep the bad raiders and keep raiding with awesome people you like, if you're hardcore start inviting new players and filter out the bad ones over time.

[Sylvaeres]

You're obnoxious to think that all skilled people are raiding mythic. Mythic is more accessible than ever before for the reasons I pointed out and it attracts all sorts of people as long as they are willing to invest time and are not attached to any particular class. Also, logs are pretty clear about who is bad and who is not even if you think that mythic raiding is some happy dream where everyone holds hands and bosses die.

A group of bad players won't get passed Reaver without 100 attempts.

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I am part of a guild that raids for 3 nights since wotlk. We used to be hardcore 6 days top 50 europe but decided, as everyone started getting older with less time and less possibilities to recruit to move to 3 nights. (it didnt happen instantly, we slowly evolved to that)

although since moving to 3 nights with forego the competition for server first etc, we managed to be top 3 on our server beating guild that raided 5 to 6 nights whilst staying motivated whilst many of those guilds and guilds above us started disbanding...

the secret, only recruit people that are at the same skill level of your guild mate. you do not want to carry anyone in mythic. dps fights are tight.

only recruit people that have a near perfect mastery of their class and that fail very rarely. Since you are raiding 3 nights, you cannot waste time with guys that wipe to avoidable shit!!!!

Stick to your raiding schedule and have a clear and easy to do raid loot distribution

Only recruit people that respect the guild and are dedicate to the 3 nights and are mature enough to tell you when they cant make it.

My take anyway.

This is a very good example of how to constructively post. Thank you.

[Kib]

@Raiju once you're set sure, when learning the ropes or making the transition from a Heroic guild to a Mythic guild, you need to drop your ego... I've seen way too many people think they're hot shit because they're the top DPS in their Heroic guild and bitch week after week that they are held back by their gear, or by trinket procs, fight mechanics and X and Y and Z every time... this is what i ment by the ego... afterwards you're set and are comfortable sure be a dick and cocky as long as you can back it up, it'll work in some place and in others you'll get kicked :P

[Raiju]

bitch week after week that they are held back by their gear, or by trinket procs, fight mechanics and X and Y and Z every time

That's delusional baddies, you can have an ego if you're good. Such people aren't good clearly.

[recoriolis]

If I'm assessing a player to determine whether or not I'd want to raid with them, I will look to answer a few questions. Do you understand the mechanics? At what rate do you die to those mechanics? At what rate do you correct your mistakes?

Anyone who doesn't know the mechanics has already demonstrated their lack of effort. Within the game itself is the dungeon journal, which quite literally explains the entire fight down to the last spell, community created guides notwithstanding.

Everyone makes mistakes. That's acceptable. In fact, these encounters were designed to prove a challenge to your mental/physical faculties. Anytime you perform a task meant for you to fail, you cannot reasonably say failure is unacceptable. How often you make mistakes as an individual contributes to the failure rate of others.

Everyone has different learning curves. For some, it takes 1 attempt, for others, it takes hundreds. This will determine where you stand on the bell curve for the list of raids that were successful.

[Albimoo]

@Raiju once you're set sure, when learning the ropes or making the transition from a Heroic guild to a Mythic guild, you need to drop your ego... I've seen way too many people think they're hot shit because they're the top DPS in their Heroic guild and bitch week after week that they are held back by their gear, or by trinket procs, fight mechanics and X and Y and Z every time... this is what i ment by the ego... afterwards you're set and are comfortable sure be a dick and cocky as long as you can back it up, it'll work in some place and in others you'll get kicked :P

I think that last point is a big part in how it will work in a guild; it is really a guild-specific thing. Some guilds thrive on the competition and in a situation like that I find you will more often find ego's and self-confident people and them being around each other really pushes them to be better. Its in their nature. I imagine that most cutting edge guilds would gravitate to an atmosphere like this.

However there are a bunch of decent top 100 guilds that raid lighter schedules/consist of older people/raid because they enjoy it or the company/ a whole variety of other reasons and I'm sure that kind of attitude just wouldn't jive because thats not how the guild mentality is.


I mean obviously a shitty player with a huge ego doesnt have a productive place in any guild but you know what I mean.

[Fayenoor]

If you didn't clear Mythic in the first 5-6 weeks of patch drop, then you are not really a competitive Mythic Raider.

For the rest, Mythic is literally pretty similar to heroic. The wipe count is higher. You have to get more intimate with the fights - and really know the mechanics of each encounter inside out. Your guild needs a strong leadership core and a strat-guru good at adapting strats based on your raid team's strengths and weaknesses.

We are a fairly casual 15 man raiding guild who have huffed and puffed out way to 8/13M. We literally do like 2-3 hours of progression a week max, wipe a lot on anything, PuG a whole bunch of DPS. We also literally killed like 1-2 new bosses per month. So, if we can do it, a lot of other guilds can do it as well, given enough time.

Now if you are talking about progressive/competitive Mythic Raiding - that requires a great deal of dedication; which is beyond most people. Guild like Method, Paragon (both now defunct) had players who were not only great at their classes, but they were dedicated enough to figure out the best way to optimize their classes as required. They had very strong leaders and strategicians and that's why they were leagues ahead of the rest of the raiding pack.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Its just a video game. All it takes is comparable gear (which you would get with a guild) and a like-minded group.
We only raid 8 hours a week and still cleared everything this tier easily with enough time to get everyone a mount.

If you are looking for a guild like this lemme know.