The power gap in Legion will be even higher than WoD

[rda]

10% is a significantly lower delta than it has ever been at any point in pvp history.

DAMN. It's been ~10% for two addons!!

I am F**KING TIRED of hearing the same nonsense from people who have NO CLUE about current PVP. You are person #138 who don't know what the numbers in PVP have been like for the last four years yet somehow you have the gall to write these stupid posts repeating this nonsense that you made up in your mind.

I am sorry, I am yelling, but I am really, really, really tired of hearing this same never-ending stream of nonsense on how the gear difference is so big today and how it gets reduced in Legion thanks to their *spit* ilvl scaling. They add ilvl scaling but remove ilvl boost and ilvl cap. Learn what the ilvl boost and ilvl cap do. The net effect is about the same 10% that they are saying is not important (it is, but that's a different story). And while we aren't typically going to see the whole 10% in Legion - current ilvls on the beta put a standard BG-only no-rated-play player at about 8% below top, this gap is NOT GOING TO REDUCE over time like the one in MoP / WoD did. You have to go do heroic / mythic raids, or go and try to be a glad to start reducing it. In MoP / WoD you were reducing the gap all the way to 0, this took half a season if you played just to get your cap and did no other PVP at all. In Legion you CAN NOT reduce the gap. There are MORE gear differences, not less.

Read the effing threads, they explain it in far more detail.

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You know what, I am not going to write any more explanations regarding the power gap in Legion and today again. I wrote like twenty in the past 4-6 months, they don't help. It's an uphill battle. Blizzard think they are so super-smart with that misleading statement regarding 100 ilvls translating to just 10% power (which is supposedly better than it is now, but only because they don't say a word about how it is today), fine, who am I to object. They are going to reap what they sow in Legion when people realize that this BS statement is technically true, but since it's not the whole truth, it's damn misleading, and it gets much worse on balance instead of better. They will feel cheated and disappointed again, and they will let those idiot monkeys at Blizzard know.

[Deleted]

Sorry to intrude, but

You actually have to farm your artifact for months,

the last time i bothered to check Legion PvP it was stated that Artefacts would not work in instanced PvP (arenas and BGs), but will be fully functional in World PvP. I haven't seen any posts regarding changing this or there was?

on top of that you have to farm your honor talents, and ON TOP OF THAT you gain power from your ilvl.

People with higher ratings will also get the benefit of higher ilvl, wich means there will be an extra power gap between players

Well the last time I checked this game is about progressing you character. You can't and you shouldn't compare a fresh toon and toon that is playing for 3 months right? You can't compare people who do 2 BGs per night with people who do 5 rated BGs and 10 arenas per night right?

So basicaly all you need to do is play around 50 BGs and you will have enough honor to unlock like 5 of the 6 tallents of the tallents, and you will get enough gear along the way to be around 820 ilvl and "top" people will have 6 tallents unlocked and 830 ilvl (ilvl numbers pulled outta my arze) so in the end you, the Casual Joe, will be around 10% weaker than the Pro PVPer - Bob the Bomb. And if artefacts work in instanded PVP i guess you will also get enough ArP, so you wouldn't be that far behind the mentioned por pvper.

From my point of view there is no real problem here. Just the OP want to hit the boost button, que for BG and fight people. But the problem is, as i said, this game is about progressing your character power, so you cant expect, as i said, a person who have played the game for 3 months to not have gained some benefits for his time spent on the game and the next night the Casual Joe log in and destroy him. Thats is not fun right?

[Raugnaut]

For Artifact Power, don't you basically gain double the power you did the previous week? Or was it increments of +100% baseline power gain? (So, 200% week 2, 300% week 3, ect)

What I do know is that currently, each week that goes by increases the rate players gain artifact power. So lets say that player A reaches artifact lvl 2 week 1, artifact lvl 4 week 2, and artifact lvl 8 week 3. With the incremental increase, player B can come in week 3 and quickly get to artifact lvl 6, at which point he starts gaining it at the rate of the rest of the game (So he will, technically, ALWAYS be behind.)

But, do note that after a certain point, the power required to lvl up even ONCE is exponentially higher then the previous (I think it starts at like lvl 27 or something?). So, eventually, you get everyone stuck at, say, artifact lvl 50 for 3 months, because thats how long it takes to go from 50-51.

Note that ALL artifacts have a current cap of 54.

So, yes. If you join late, you will ALWAYS be behind everyone else. Of course, providing that you maximize your time playing, you can quickly catch up to a certain lvl, meaning that you will generally only have 1.5-2.25% less hp then everyone else, do maybe 3-4% less damage then everyone else. And, eventually, you will be within .75% hp of everyone else, and .5% damage of everyone else.

[Syld]

Sorry to intrude, but

the last time i bothered to check Legion PvP it was stated that Artefacts would not work in instanced PvP (arenas and BGs), but will be fully functional in World PvP. I haven't seen any posts regarding changing this or there was?

You are wrong, artifacts work on instanced pvp.
And I agree completely that this game is about progressing your character, but Blizzard introduced the new pvp system to have a level playing field and I can't see how this new system accomplishes that

[Eroginous]

DAMN. It's been ~10% for two addons!!

I am F**KING TIRED of hearing the same nonsense from people who have NO CLUE about current PVP. You are person #138 who don't know what the numbers in PVP have been like for the last four years yet somehow you have the gall to write these stupid posts repeating this nonsense that you made up in your mind.

I am sorry, I am yelling, but I am really, really, really tired of hearing this same never-ending stream of nonsense on how the gear difference is so big today and how it gets reduced in Legion thanks to their *spit* ilvl scaling. They add ilvl scaling but remove ilvl boost and ilvl cap. Learn what the ilvl boost and ilvl cap do. The net effect is about the same 10% that they are saying is not important (it is, but that's a different story). And while we aren't typically going to see the whole 10% in Legion - current ilvls on the beta put a standard BG-only no-rated-play player at about 8% below top, this gap is NOT GOING TO REDUCE over time like the one in MoP / WoD did. You have to go do heroic / mythic raids, or go and try to be a glad to start reducing it. In MoP / WoD you were reducing the gap all the way to 0, this took half a season if you played just to get your cap and did no other PVP at all. In Legion you CAN NOT reduce the gap. There are MORE gear differences, not less.

Read the effing threads, they explain it in far more detail.

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You know what, I am not going to write any more explanations regarding the power gap in Legion and today again. I wrote like twenty in the past 4-6 months, they don't help. It's an uphill battle. Blizzard think they are so super-smart with that misleading statement regarding 100 ilvls translating to just 10% power (which is supposedly better than it is now, but only because they don't say a word about how it is today), fine, who am I to object. They are going to reap what they sow in Legion when people realize that this BS statement is technically true, but since it's not the whole truth, it's damn misleading, and it gets much worse on balance instead of better. They will feel cheated and disappointed again, and they will let those idiot monkeys at Blizzard know.

So, the 10% number is just an example based on the scaling of 0.1% per 1 ilvl with a 100 ilvl difference. There is no solid number yet on what the actual delta will be - because it's not there yet. I've also talked about it being possible to have a much bigger delta considering the gear dropping being given extra ilvls as a RNG roll.

We could be dealing with a delta much larger than ever. Or one much smaller than ever. It really just depends on how things play out. I think with this system you'll get a lot more variation between the ilvl ranges of players, which is what they are shooting for (I think) due to the nature of previous gear grinds and the relative ease of hitting the gear ceiling in a short time.

[PrairieChicken]

Sorry to intrude, but

the last time i bothered to check Legion PvP it was stated that Artefacts would not work in instanced PvP (arenas and BGs), but will be fully functional in World PvP. I haven't seen any posts regarding changing this or there was?



Well the last time I checked this game is about progressing you character. You can't and you shouldn't compare a fresh toon and toon that is playing for 3 months right? You can't compare people who do 2 BGs per night with people who do 5 rated BGs and 10 arenas per night right?

So basicaly all you need to do is play around 50 BGs and you will have enough honor to unlock like 5 of the 6 tallents of the tallents, and you will get enough gear along the way to be around 820 ilvl and "top" people will have 6 tallents unlocked and 830 ilvl (ilvl numbers pulled outta my arze) so in the end you, the Casual Joe, will be around 10% weaker than the Pro PVPer - Bob the Bomb. And if artefacts work in instanded PVP i guess you will also get enough ArP, so you wouldn't be that far behind the mentioned por pvper.

From my point of view there is no real problem here. Just the OP want to hit the boost button, que for BG and fight people. But the problem is, as i said, this game is about progressing your character power, so you cant expect, as i said, a person who have played the game for 3 months to not have gained some benefits for his time spent on the game and the next night the Casual Joe log in and destroy him. Thats is not fun right?

The problem here is that blizzard said they want gear to matter less. And the changes do the exact opposite of what they say. Now if they did the same patch and said they want gear gap to be bigger then it wouldn't be a problem we are currently discussing (many people will be pissed but at least they are doing what they said)

It is not about whether gear should matter or not, but rather about whether blizz is really doing what they announce

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So, the 10% number is just an example based on the scaling of 0.1% per 1 ilvl with a 100 ilvl difference. There is no solid number yet on what the actual delta will be - because it's not there yet. I've also talked about it being possible to have a much bigger delta considering the gear dropping being given extra ilvls as a RNG roll.

We could be dealing with a delta much larger than ever. Or one much smaller than ever. It really just depends on how things play out. I think with this system you'll get a lot more variation between the ilvl ranges of players, which is what they are shooting for (I think) due to the nature of previous gear grinds and the relative ease of hitting the gear ceiling in a short time.

It is there on beta, and they announced multiple times it will be 10%. With launch up on our noses I do not see why the number would change.

And even if it does get smaller it doesn't change the fact that gearing model makes it harder for latecomers/low raitings/non raiders to catch up.

[nodq]

Everyone knows as a fresh 100 if you queue on a BG you are going to get obliterated, but it doesn't matter because you'll be fully geared in 2 days anyways. Now in legion Blizzard has created "pvp templates", so the power difference between a fresh 110 and a fully geared player is minimal. Or is it? You actually have to farm your artifact for months, and on top of that you have to farm your honor talents, and ON TOP OF THAT you gain power from your ilvl. Those things are a HUGE difference in power and it will take a shit ton of time for a new 110 to be on the same level as other players when we are mid xpac.
People with higher ratings will also get the benefit of higher ilvl, wich means there will be an extra power gap between players that doesn't exist now.
Has blizzard commented anything on this?, seems like they tried to solve a minimal problem with a system that has the same flaws but to a much greater extent.

In my opinion i appreciate that. I was never a friend of these massive twinks waves everytime in every BG. I misseds the past when most people played their main character and maybe one twinks just for fun. Today it is like every player has 10 main characters because it is so easy to buy an max level character etc. I never liked that tbh. Maybe players, especially newer ones, put more time into their class they wanna invest time into. And if blizzard makes it good, you will get the reward feeling for putting that much time into it.

[Etrock08]

The problem here is that blizzard said they want gear to matter less. And the changes do the exact opposite of what they say. Now if they did the same patch and said they want gear gap to be bigger then it wouldn't be a problem we are currently discussing (many people will be pissed but at least they are doing what they said)

It is not about whether gear should matter or not, but rather about whether blizz is really doing what they announce

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It is there on beta, and they announced multiple times it will be 10%. With launch up on our noses I do not see why the number would change.

And even if it does get smaller it doesn't change the fact that gearing model makes it harder for latecomers/low raitings/non raiders to catch up.

So are you assuming that out of the gate everyone is going to have max ilvl pieces in every slot so that everyone but that one new player will be entering pvp with just their questing gear?

There will almost never be a 10% difference in stats because that would require one side to get absolutely no gear whatsoever from any aspect of the game at all. They dont even have to mythic raid or top tier pvp, at all, you can casually have dungeon gear and heoric gear and boom you are already cutting that 10% lead by a ton.

You are also looking at the system in an ass backwards way and only taking the min and max of the situation in legion while comparing them to the AVERAGES of the past years. If you min and max WoD, MoP etc you would see that new players entering pvp were often at a 25-30% gear/stat disadvantage often times with HALF of the hp and damage of a moderatley geared pvper and that is with pve gear scaling. Go into WoD pvp fresh with 250K hp and stare at a 400K hp person of the same class or 500K+ hp Warlock and then find that your attacks deal maybe 12-15k a hit. to them.

Catching up is super easy since it is only ilvl that matters, crafted gear, dungeon gear, raiding gear, random pvp boxes, Mythic dungeon gear, Mythic +, World Quest farming, Artifact weapon farming will take about as long as it normally takes to pick up new weapons from the old pvp systems. Any gear you get from any source can be used in pvp, it doesnt have to be crafted specifically for pvp.

Of course the artifacts will take time to level but not months upon months and its much better than the game itself compltley blocking of the best items for pvp through ratings that many people will never achieve be it based on time, team comp, skill, etc.

[wholol]

All the new system does is emphasize the strength of a spec ( not even a class ) on a person's account above all else, there will be gear differences, might be more or less than what we have now , we'll have to wait and see, but the one thing the new system does that is flying under the radar is the fact that you must, literally, choose the class and spec you wish to play for the majority of the expansion from day 1, and I do mean literally, the new system totally discourages alt swapping and more importantly spec swapping ( even with artifact catch up which wont be as fast as main class/spec), so basically if you want to play on a competitive level you are probably going to stick to that 1 spec most of the expansion, until artifacts are maxed and you can max another toon which should be nowhere near first half of the expansion anyways.

And the second issue I'm seeing isn't the problem with pvp gear scaling, but high end mythic gear vs high end pvp gear, if at max possible ilvls in both endgames are achieved, aka bis from both sides of the spectrum, pve gear is still superior to pvp gear EVEN in rated content, the lack of set bonus/ pvp trinket bonus further enhance this.

But this shouldn't be a problem for any R1 player wearing R1 ilvl pvp gear vs a pver with mythic gear as they simply don't have the knowledge to get to the R1's rating.

However the problem becomes an issue in lower brackets, I will explain my thoughts in detail below:

-let's say at 1500 rating, team A faces team B, both teams are of equal skill and do belong in the current rating range they are playing at- the winners will receive compensation at the start of the week which grants them Xilvl gear ( based on current rating ), their opponents will also get the same ilvl gear if they win.

Basically, those 2 teams will most likely have the same ilvl over an extended duration of time, unless dramatic improvement to their playstyle is introduced.

If one of those Teams becomes better and climbs higher/achieves better ilvl then they will be facing people of the same rating range using the same ilvl as them, so it balances out over a long duration of time.

But now what happens if team A is made up of 1500 pvpers ( who do not raid ) and team B are made up of mythic geared players who have finished clearing the current tier mythic raid and have nothing better to do than join some arenas.

Yep you've guessed it, odds are the mythic geared team B will have a clear damage advantage over team A at 1500 rating, even though team B aren't pvpers and most likely team B will win at this rating range.

This process if drawn on a graph with a slope that is concave downward per rating increase, aka diminishing the higher the rating increases.

For a comparison a R1 team that is playing at their rating would never lose to a mythic geared team with no prior experience on that rating range, but does that make it fair to the lower brackets who are pvpers but don't have access to mythic level gear? probably not.

The other issue here is if a rank 1 team also does mythic level raids and takes said mythic gear into a rank 1 rating range, so you have team A and team B at rank 1 rating range , team A with BiS R1 ilvl gear and Team B with BiS mythic level gear, both teams are at the respective rating range , the odds are heavily in team B's favor.

The argument for this could be something like, but team B farmed mythic raids AND pvped so they deserve it, but do they really ? it might not seem fair to team A, but this is how blizzard designed it, % time investment = % increase in reward.

If blizzard is to fix this issue, it would be by setting a limiter on pve ilvl entering a competitive pvp instance based on the rating range in that instance, but that would that too many resources to pull off, and blizzard doesn't have the time to spend on doing this over making sure raids are appealing to raiders.

Sorry this post ended up too long.

[Etrock08]

But now what happens if team A is made up of 1500 pvpers ( who do not raid ) and team B are made up of mythic geared players who have finished clearing the current tier mythic raid and have nothing better to do than join some arenas.

Yep you've guessed it, odds are the mythic geared team B will have a clear damage advantage over team A at 1500 rating, even though team B aren't pvpers and most likely team B will win at this rating range.

Wrong, you are assuming that the 1500 rating group has never increased their ilvl and that the mythic team will have a huge damage advantage, at 1500 rating and if they had been gearing through their boxes and content they will not be more 2-2.5% of a difference in raw stats as a 1500 rating group should have accumulated a good amount of gear, and in any pvp situation that is barely anything and only means something if the teams have the exact same skill level making which in the 1500 rating is unlikely.

That damage advantage is not clear as time and time again, pvp teams with higher ilvls have been destroyed by teams with lower ilvls. Also highest ilvl gear does not come from just mythic raiding, it comes from the + dungeons as well, and a lot of high ilvls come from pvp boxes and crafting. By the time mythic raiders are fully geared in mythic gear, its going to be months into the expansion where many pvp teams are just as equal. Mythic gear is not 10% stronger in ilvls from heroic gear or pvp gear either like i said above, you may be looking at a 2-2.5% stat difference. If they are beating a team easily and without question at the same rank with barley a 2% stat difference then they are likely a better team overall.

[Jotaux]

. If they are beating a team easily and without question at the same rank with barley a 2% stat difference then they are likely a better team overall.

I see this a lot, its like people can't comprehend the degrees a team can be better than another. A slightly better team could lose to a 2% stat difference.

[Livevil]

No one said a full grind would be 1% more damage, that was just an example of an upgrade, with the max being somewhere around 10% for 100 ilvls higher, an incredible amount less than the gap in Legion. Again, even 10% will not be much between a skilled player and a non-skilled player.

I'm not worried about the talents as the first 6 levels are the most used/desirable talents. Not sure how much an advantage artifacts will be, but that also can be earned through pvp.

It's not an incredibly less amount compared to wod, because you will be missing the majority of your artifact levels + honor talents which take much much longer to farm than a honor set in wod does.

Ergo your average new character, which everyone seems to use as an example, will have to spend much more time getting stomped in BGs trying to farm all the above.

[Fang7986]

you want a game that has decent pvp play a game that's actually focused on just pvp

[Onvious]

right now, casual players can get full conquest gear in couple of weeks, but in legion, i dont think any casual player can get mythic gear.. so power level always be there.

[Mafic]

Gear is going to matter more in Legion. If HP pools in Legion stay low because of templates someone having a few points of versatility over someone else actually has a huge advantage. If Blizzard was serious about gear mattering less then would buff HP pools and the damage of casters.

Also the honor talents for casual players will take 1-2 months to fully farm out to honor rank 50 and that is assuming they don't quit before reaching honor level 50. The prestige system doesn't work when they plan on having shorter PVP seasons anyways.

The power gap from those with 3rd column talents and those with no talents is night and day difference. There are some exceptions with some specs being able to do fine with first column PVP talents (eg Sub Rogues) but those specs are outliers.

[wholol]

Wrong, you are assuming that the 1500 rating group has never increased their ilvl and that the mythic team will have a huge damage advantage, at 1500 rating and if they had been gearing through their boxes and content they will not be more 2-2.5% of a difference in raw stats as a 1500 rating group should have accumulated a good amount of gear, and in any pvp situation that is barely anything and only means something if the teams have the exact same skill level making which in the 1500 rating is unlikely.

That damage advantage is not clear as time and time again, pvp teams with higher ilvls have been destroyed by teams with lower ilvls. Also highest ilvl gear does not come from just mythic raiding, it comes from the + dungeons as well, and a lot of high ilvls come from pvp boxes and crafting. By the time mythic raiders are fully geared in mythic gear, its going to be months into the expansion where many pvp teams are just as equal. Mythic gear is not 10% stronger in ilvls from heroic gear or pvp gear either like i said above, you may be looking at a 2-2.5% stat difference. If they are beating a team easily and without question at the same rank with barley a 2% stat difference then they are likely a better team overall.

I think you're missing my point, if team A has never been higher than 1500 the gear they get from boxes will have 1500 rated ilvl pvp gear, even if several months have passed, they would be in full 1500 rating ilvl pvp gear, sure dungeons have high ilvl but we're talking about mythic raiding BiS, dungeon RNG upgraded gear won't be as good as BiS mythic raiding gear.

And sure the ilvl will be scaled down for those that have higher ilvl, but it is still a % increase nonetheless, if both teams are equal in terms of skill it should be apparent which team holds the advantage here.

I'm not talking about a scenario in which a team that is undergeared outplays a more geared team, which is doable of course, but in the case of equal skill levels the potential for outplaying does not exist.

[Livevil]

The prestige system doesn't work when they plan on having shorter PVP seasons anyways.

The myth of shorter pvp seasons is busted, the achievements on PTR clearly show the planned pvp seasons are 4 and the expansion is 3 tiered. Ergo like MoP

[Magemaer]

The myth of shorter pvp seasons is busted, the achievements on PTR clearly show the planned pvp seasons are 4 and the expansion is 3 tiered. Ergo like MoP

Maybe it's four seasons for this patch.

[Caolela]

What did you expect with this guy in an influential role on the development team?



Combine his stance with those of some of the other fuckers on the team and this is the system you get.

The infamous d-bag Jay "Shut Up PvP Guy" Wilson has recently left Blizzard's employ. Good news, but the damage has been done and even w/o people like him, one has to realize that the over-arching decisions come down from the corporate bean-counters like Kotick & Morhaime.

People like Wilson, Holinka, GC (now gone too), Lore, Celestalon, Ion, etc. just carry out their general directives for game design and PR spin for their specific or respective depts.

You can see it in everything else Blizzard does, and it's been this way since 2008 after Wrath launched and Cata was the first xpac that Activision was fully responsible for. They'll just replace Wilson with someone as bad if not worse - yet another corporate 'yes' man who values his own paycheck and career advancement more than any integrity the Blizz name may have once stood for.

[SteveRocks]

Why are people saying he is incorrect? I mean, legion's system will make it an obscene amount of time to get to "max" efficiency compared to WoD which takes 1-2 days.

A fully unlocked artifact increases your dmg like what, 15-20% of even more? Now put all pvp talent into that aswell.

And then let him fight a newly dinged lvl 110.

How is this wrong?

Just wanted to say I am a big KingKiller fan and I like your Avatar