Deatholme, Dead Scar and the Elfgates

[cmats4020]

Okay, I've been trying to solve some inconsistencies found between WC3 and WoW involving Quel'thalas.

Elfgates
Considering there are two elfgates, one found before crossing the Elrendar River and one after, one elfgate must obviously be found in the Ghostlands and the other in northern Eversong Woods. Many people claim that Thalassian Pass was the first elfgate, but if that was the case, then the original lands of Quel'thalas must have extended into the Eastern Plaguelands as Arthas destroyed a High elven village prior to destroying the first elfgate. When it comes to the second elfgate, the only place I could see there being one that follows the Dead Scar would be that area between the two mountainous regions on the map, just below the text "The Dead Scar" (as seen here). If that's the case, then the elfgate must be longer than originally shown (which should be obvious due to gameplay limitations). The only problem would be that we don't see any remnants of this elfgate at all (much less the first one), and if there was a gate there, Arthas could have easily went through the Scorched Grove and head towards Silvermoon, passing between Sunsail Anchorage and Fairbreeze Village, instead of spending his time trying to get the Key of the Three Moons. Some people claim that the second elfgate is the original entrance to Silvermoon City (the giant broken doors that you can't access in game). However, in WC3, Arthas opens the second elfgate prior to entering Silvermoon proper, so I doubt this is the actual inner elfgate.

Deatholme and the Dead Scar
People claim that Deatholme was the original village that Arthas destroyed and built over to make a base. However, according to Lady Liadrin, Deatholme was built in the year 25, 5 years after the fall of Quel'thalas. Considering this, why does the Dead Scar start here? Even if Lady Liadrin's wrong and the fanbase is correct, why does the Dead Scar start here and not in Thalassian Pass? Maybe Arthas could have traversed over the mountain range, but if Lady Liadrin's correct, then wouldn't the Dead Scar extend . . . well . . . over the mountain range? Regardless, if Deatholme was Arthas' first base, then Thalassian Pass couldn't have been the first elfgate considering he would have had to destroy it prior to creating his base, which is contradictory to the WC3 Undead storyline.

Other
When it comes to Sylvanas destroying the bridge over the Elrendar River, I understand that "Path of Frost" probably was never even imagined at the time of WC3's inception. However, in WoW, there's a second bridge not too far from the Dead Scar. If they built a bridge after the Third War I can understand that. Nevertheless, there are roads leading to and from this bridge as well, and they're seemingly well established considering villages yet-to-be-reclaimed have footpaths leading to this main road. The only explanation I can think of is that Sylvanas and/or her cadre destroyed the one bridge that we can find in the MMO prior to her meeting with Arthas, and subsequently destroyed that bridge shown in WC3 as well. However, if this is the case, there seemingly aren't any roads that converge at this point for a bridge to even exist there. Even furthermore, considering the retcon of the Sunwell not being in Silvermoon (despite the fact that WC3 maps show it's supposed to be separate from the capital) and the Path of Frost being used to get to Quel'danas, it's irrelevant that Sylvanas even needed to destroy a bridge over the Elrendar River.

I'm probably missing a lot of other things I had going on in my head, but yeah . . .

[Deleted]

Well, the first elfgate is clearly the entrance from Eastern Plaguelands. There's that elf city just beyond it, where the high elves were banished. Wretched are wondering close to it these days.

No clue about the other. Though if I remember correctly, I did read in a book how Arthas did use Path of Frost to get to the Island of Quel'Danas, where he met Anastarian Sunstrider. While Anastarian survived the battle, Quel'thalas fell. So he could use the Path of Frost. Somewhat.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Well when I did the Arthas campaign across Quel'thalas I roamed every inch of the map so how come all of Quel'thalas isn't known as the deadscar?

[Aucald]

Well when I did the Arthas campaign across Quel'thalas I roamed every inch of the map so how come all of Quel'thalas isn't known as the deadscar?

In the original Warcraft 3 missions you lead a smaller battalion of forces to take the Elfgate keystones, stop Sylvanas' runner, etc. The Dead Scar was caused by the march of the bulk of the Scourge's forces once the way was unlocked - it wasn't an event in Warcraft 3 that you really got to play. You've also some got some separation of story and gameplay going on - you're not going to have a 1:1 translation of Quel'thalas' geography for gameplay purposes, so I'd imagine Deatholme and the Dead Scar represented in WoW are more or less symbols for their representations in the lore.

[AlmightyGerkin]

In the original Warcraft 3 missions you lead a smaller battalion of forces to take the Elfgate keystones, stop Sylvanas' runner, etc. The Dead Scar was caused by the march of the bulk of the Scourge's forces once the way was unlocked - it wasn't an event in Warcraft 3 that you really got to play. You've also some got some separation of story and gameplay going on - you're not going to have a 1:1 translation of Quel'thalas' geography for gameplay purposes, so I'd imagine Deatholme and the Dead Scar represented in WoW are more or less symbols for their representations in the lore.

I know about the level and all that was just attempting to make a joke relating to the topic.

[Deleted]

Well, just take a look at the Outland (or Suramar, for that matter...) and you'll see that Warcraft 3 map accuracy isn't exactly the first Blizzard's priority.

[Azahel]

Isn't the third elven gate on the sunwell plateau?

[cmats4020]

Well, the first elfgate is clearly the entrance from Eastern Plaguelands. There's that elf city just beyond it, where the high elves were banished.

That doesn't make much sense though. Arthas razed a whole village and turned it into his base of operations, and this specific village was within Quel'thalassian territory. Quel'Lithien Lodge is in the Eastern Plaguelands.

No clue about the other. Though if I remember correctly, I did read in a book how Arthas did use Path of Frost to get to the Island of Quel'Danas, where he met Anastarian Sunstrider. While Anastarian survived the battle, Quel'thalas fell. So he could use the Path of Frost. Somewhat.

That book was most likely written after WC3 was made. However, Anasterian never survived the battle against Arthas. Frostmourne cut Felo'melorn in two and stole Anasterian's soul.

Isn't the third elven gate on the sunwell plateau?

There never was a third elfgate.

[Deleted]

That doesn't make much sense though. Arthas razed a whole village and turned it into his base of operations, and this specific village was within Quel'thalassian territory. Quel'Lithien Lodge is in the Eastern Plaguelands.

Maybe that part of the Eastern Plaguelands originally belonged to Quel'thalas. Like, Quel'Lithien lodge was a border town and Lordaeron only extended to Northpass tower, but after the whole area got wrecked, blood elves now abandoned that part as they had simply shunned high elves there.

That book was most likely written after WC3 was made. However, Anasterian never survived the battle against Arthas. Frostmourne cut Felo'melorn in two and stole Anasterian's soul.

I just looked into it. Indeed, you were right, he died, but Arthas did hop on path of ice with the Scourge. This is in Arthas's book. Still, considering this it would mean that the second gate does not really exists in the game.

[cmats4020]

Maybe that part of the Eastern Plaguelands originally belonged to Quel'thalas. Like, Quel'Lithien lodge was a border town and Lordaeron only extended to Northpass tower, but after the whole area got wrecked, blood elves now abandoned that part as they had simply shunned high elves there.

That's what I was thinking as well. And if part of the Eastern Plaguelands was originally part of Quel'thalas, then Thalassian Pass may very well have been the first elfgate.

However, if Quel'Lithien was Arthas' original base, then the Dead Scar should start from there, not from Deatholme which was created 5 years after the fall of the kingdom.

. . . but Arthas did hop on path of ice with the Scourge. This is in Arthas's book. Still, considering this it would mean that the second gate does not really exists in the game.

Still, Arthas was publicized in 2009. Meanwhile, WC3 was released in 2002. I doubt Path of frost was even conceptualized until after the game's release (especially considering the fact that Arthas could not travel across the Elrendar River), plus in the game, the Sunwell was located in Silvermoon, not on a separate island. So the second elfgate most likely still existed, but it was still somewhere between Elrendar River and Silvermoon proper. Whether this translates well in the game remains to be seen.

In my opinion, the elfgate could only be where I stated in the OP, or it may be the broken, inaccessible gate in Silvermoon City. If it is the latter, it doesn't make sense considering it took Arthas a while to actually get to Silvermoon after opening the second gate. About the former, I recently read about the Scorched Grove on Wowpedia stating that the Blood elves burned down the forest there to halt Scourge forces. So, if they burned down the forest during the Third War, where I stated the elfgate was would make sense. However, if it was burned down afterwards to halt the remaining Scourge forces in the Ghostlands from crossing over the river and into the former wooded area, then it doesn't make sense at all.

[Aucald]

Even the Fury of the Sunwell cinematic for the final content patch in TBC is inconsistent in how it shows the Sunwell during the events of Warcraft 3. The cinematic shows Kael'thas and few magisters surrounding the font of the Sunwell in the outdoors, like it was just sort sitting on the ground as its own detached structure (completely different from Warcraft 3 where the Sunwell is instead nestled in the heart of Silvermoon City). Then you find on the Isle of Quel'danas that the Sunwell has an entire sprawling building built around it with its own distinct grounds, and the Sunwell well protected within it by a pretty massive rotunda and observation decks.

[Qprah]

Even the Fury of the Sunwell cinematic for the final content patch in TBC is inconsistent in how it shows the Sunwell during the events of Warcraft 3. The cinematic shows Kael'thas and few magisters surrounding the font of the Sunwell in the outdoors, like it was just sort sitting on the ground as its own detached structure (completely different from Warcraft 3 where the Sunwell is instead nestled in the heart of Silvermoon City). Then you find on the Isle of Quel'danas that the Sunwell has an entire sprawling building built around it with its own distinct grounds, and the Sunwell well protected within it by a pretty massive rotunda and observation decks.

From what I've gathered from the Arthas book, WC3 and WoW, it only makes sense that the WC3 version of the Sunwell being inside Silvermoon was changed.

However as seen in that preview, originally the Sunwell was out in the open on the Isle of Quel'Danas. After Arthas came and destroyed everything the new Blood Elves rebuilt Silvermoon, and built up the Sunwell Plateau around the Sunwell to protect it.


The 2nd Elfgate should be somewhere between Ghostlands and Silvermoon, since the 3 locations of the Key of Three Moons are in WoW in the Ghostlands. However they may have changed one of the Elfgates to be Runestones that are along the border of Eversong.

[cmats4020]

However they may have changed one of the Elfgates to be Runestones that are along the border of Eversong.

The runestones have been present since the RTS. They were originally mentioned in the WC2 manual and were shown on the map in the WC3 manual, so the runestones should have co-existed with the elfgates.