You know what worries me more than anything else in the West these days?

[Lenonis]

Yes, the goal should be to get the government to stay out of legislating social issue based on personal ideology.

Nice sentiment but entirely impractical. Social issues are tied to law, thus require government.

[GennGreymane]

Only ones that are universal in nature. For example, trying to pass a Christian based law is identity politics and group based. It is divisive and to be avoided.

What laws are universal? Even some of the ones we base western civilization on came from individual ideologies.

[PC2]

What laws are universal? Even some of the ones we base western civilization on came from individual ideologies.

Outlawing murder, right to free speech. There are universal values, which are not based in identity and group politics.

[dragonvalor]

Outlawing murder, right to free speech. There are universal values, which are not based in identity and group politics.

That's untrue

[GennGreymane]

Outlawing murder, right to free speech. There are universal values, which are not based in identity and group politics.

Neither of those are very universal. Free speech is incredibly new, and murder varies so much case to case. In the US there are a few different kinds, elsewhere there is more variations.

[Kathandira]

Outlawing murder, right to free speech. There are universal values, which are not based in identity and group politics.

No stealing. No trespassing. No assault. No rape.

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In the US there are a few different kinds, elsewhere there is more variations.

But each are a crime, and are punishable.

There isn't any sort of, yeah you murdered him but we'll let it slide, in the law.

(Don't mistake what I said to mean a judge has never let a person off for murder)

[PC2]

That's untrue

Outlawing murder and right to free speech are universal values. Some regions not implementing it is an affront to civilization and humanity. Moral relativism has never been a valid idea.

[GennGreymane]

No stealing. No trespassing. No assault. No rape.

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But each are a crime, and are punishable.

There isn't any sort of, yeah you murdered him but we'll let it slide, in the law.

(Don't mistake what I said to mean a judge has never let a person off for murder)

If you kill someone in self defense.

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Outlawing murder and right to free speech are universal values. Some regions not implementing it is an affront to civilization and humanity. Moral relativism has never been a valid idea.

In the case of free speech, it was not even relative to region 250 years ago, it simply was not.

[Kathandira]

If you kill someone in self defense.

That would not be murder by definition.

mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

[PC2]

In the case of free speech, it was not even relative to region 250 years ago, it simply was not.

This is a testament to how quickly we have progressed and our ability to mentally tap into universal values.

[GennGreymane]

That would not be murder by definition.

mur·der
ˈmərdər/Submit
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1111

(a) Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Every murder perpetrated by poison, lying in wait, or any other kind of willful, deliberate, malicious, and premeditated killing; or committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, any arson, escape, murder, kidnapping, treason, espionage, sabotage, aggravated sexual abuse or sexual abuse, child abuse, burglary, or robbery; or perpetrated as part of a pattern or practice of assault or torture against a child or children; or perpetrated from a premeditated design unlawfully and maliciously to effect the death of any human being other than him who is killed, is murder in the first degree.
Any other murder is murder in the second degree.

(b) Within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States,
Whoever is guilty of murder in the first degree shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for life;

Whoever is guilty of murder in the second degree, shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/h...ughter/#murder

Subject to three exceptions (see Voluntary Manslaughter below) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:

of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane);
unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing);
any reasonable creature (human being);
in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs - Rance v Mid-Downs Health Authority (1991) 1 All ER 801 and AG Ref No 3 of 1994 (1997) 3 All ER 936;
under the Queen's Peace;
with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).

small variances. Even in laws that are based on similar structure.

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This is a testament to how quickly we have progressed and our ability to mentally tap into universal values.

How is it a universal value if it had not existed before? And what do you mean by tap in?

[Quien Soy Yo]

What it boils down to is simply the following:

Without a common enemy to unite against, Western nations will devolve into war and carnage.

[Felya]

We have different definitions of what makes America a solid nation. You think it is the immigrants, I think it is American Values and traditions.

If that's your take away from what I said, the issue isn't even differance of opinion. You can complain about SJW calling racist on Twitter as authoritarian or stifling your free speech. But, the people who express their freedom of speech are those burning the flag. The fact that you can burn the flag and government will not do a thing about it, is an example of what separates US from places like USSR. You denigrating the freedom to burn the flag, while complaining about being called homophobic or racist, is a perfect example of how being spoiled is clouding your judgment.

And why the hell would somebody on the FBI watch list be allowed to have any firearm? Even -I- am confused about that.

Because there is this entity that has a lot of political power, where any regulation is argued as taking your right away. Where letting a person on the FBI watch list get a gun, is no different than letting them own a car or a knife or a toaster.

However, even if they were not allowed to have any firearm, they would still get it anyway. Hence my problem with gun control laws.

Yes, and getting it for illegal sources, gives government a chance to actually intercept the sale versus it just being legal. On top of that, buying the gun illegally, without any sort of leverage, is a risk for those buying. After all, that gun you are buying illegally, can be used to just take your money. So, yes, if criminals have to go through extra hoops, they risk getting caught while adventuring in those avenues, as well as risking their own well being by dealing with those who have no issues doing things illegally.

[Azadina]

Outlawing murder and right to free speech are universal values. Some regions not implementing it is an affront to civilization and humanity. Moral relativism has never been a valid idea.

For example on the free speech, how is it free speech to say you are gay, if you can get fired for being one?

[Lenonis]

For example on the free speech, how is it free speech to say you are gay, if you can get fired for being one?

Free speech isn't nearly as universally understood as people want it to be.

Does it mean freedom of government censorship? does it mean freedom of personal censorship? What about consequences of speech? I don't know why we're entertaining this notion that these "universal values" are actually universal.

[BuckSparkles]

If that's your take away from what I said, the issue isn't even differance of opinion. You can complain about SJW calling racist on Twitter as authoritarian or stifling your free speech. But, the people who express their freedom of speech are those burning the flag. The fact that you can burn the flag and government will not do a thing about it, is an example of what separates US from places like USSR. You denigrating the freedom to burn the flag, while complaining about being called homophobic or racist, is a perfect example of how being spoiled is clouding your judgment.

You don't find it a bit disrespectful when somebody burns the flag? Because when I see people who burn the US flag, I kind of want them shipped off to some hellhole of a country so they can see what a -real- terrible nation is. Might make them more humble and appreciative of the United States. They are the spoiled ones. It's amazing how we have men and women who put their lives on the line for that sort of trash.

[PC2]

How is it a universal value if it had not existed before? And what do you mean by tap in?

I'm saying that it is a universal value for all high level intelligence, which is ultimately governed by math and physics, which predates humans. It is only after we evolved that we could tap into universal concepts that other animals have never shown awareness of.

For example on the free speech, how is it free speech to say you are gay, if you can get fired for being one?

I think you are referring to at-will employment, which is its own can of worms. It doesn't specifically target sexuality, it is across the board.

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You don't find it a bit disrespectful when somebody burns the flag?

No, but I would ask them what flag does represent them and why don't they move there. To me they just look like idiots who stay in a place they don't like.

[Azadina]

I think you are referring to at-will employment, which is an entirely different can of worms.

It affects freedom of speech too. If saying something harmless as your sexual orientation gets you fired and legally discriminated against, then it's not much of free speech is it.

You don't find it a bit disrespectful when somebody burns the flag? Because when I see people who burn the US flag, I kind of want them shipped off to some hellhole of a country so they can see what a -real- terrible nation is. Might make them more humble and appreciative of the United States. They are the spoiled ones. It's amazing how we have men and women who put their lives on the line for that sort of trash.

Do you apply this idea to people who fly nazi or confederate flag too? As in, disgracing the official flag?

[Kathandira]

For example on the free speech, how is it free speech to say you are gay, if you can get fired for being one?

As far as I understand it, free speech only means you cannot be arrested for what you say. Though a known limitation to that is the threat of fatal harm, aka death threats.

It does not mean a business cannot fire you for what you say. As a matter of fact, many businesses can fire you for no reason at all if they require you to sign such a contract. There are anti-discrimination laws that say a person cannot be fire because of their religion and such. But that is why some businesses make you sign a contract that says you don't have to be given a reason.

[PC2]

It affects freedom of speech too. If saying something harmless as your sexual orientation gets you fired and legally discriminated against, then it's not much of free speech is it.

Yes that is a free expression issue, thus a moral and ethical issue.

However, it is not a free speech issue unless the government gets involved.