You know what worries me more than anything else in the West these days?

[Deleted]

Some are. You have been posting well. Others just are trying to bait. And a few are just anti-american.

What can you do though?

Well, either admit that the perspective might not be completely logical or continue to argue over semantics.

I don't like it when others burn my countries flag, but I also admit to it being an incredibly silly feeling to have. Which is why I wouldn't say that I am somehow offended or opposed to the notion of flag burning, I'll dislike the actual message far more (if the message is malicious).

Also interesting fact of the day, our flag will soon be 800 years old!

[BuckSparkles]

Never said you had to, but you are also stating how much you dont care, and then you whine about people doing it. Worse of all you place a piece of cloth above real ideals.

Who said I do that? I just think the "piece of cloth" represents those ideals. And it represents those ideals to many.

[HumbleDuck]

Considering that all the way till World War 2 European countries were at almost constant war with each other and only in the last 70 years (~30 years if we include Cold War) there was a relative peace on the West, I'd say we are more united nowadays than ever. If extremists take over again, THEN we will become divided, with wars all over the West emerging once again.

WWI started because of two vastly powerful opposing power blocks formed in EU to act as each others deterrence. By EU becoming polarised and radicalism crawling to power over years, WW1 happened. WW2 was a necessary follow up.
Now, these days the blocks are there, only this time on a worldwide scale. The only question is, when will the governments see it be too much of an effort to avoid the war.

[PC2]

Save for truly magical powers, nobody can accurately predict their own death. When you've reached the top, there is nowhere else to go but the grave.

Third world regions are developing, so there will be a sort of relative % decline over time. Thinking that relative decline is comparable to going to the grave is really dramatic.

[BuckSparkles]

Of course you have the right to disagree. I'm saying you should celebrate the fact that it is legal, even if you don't like the act itself.

I get the later.

I just get the sensation that some posters think I should actively agree with flag burning.

[AztechZero]

Eh done with your baiting.

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It -is- disrespectful though.

I'm sure you feel it is

[Theodarzna]

Third world regions are developing, so there will be a sort of relative decline over time. Thinking that relative decline is comparable to going to the grave is really dramatic.

Its rhetoric deary,

In general societies tend to decay after they have become very complex and very wealthy and when they enter the phase of trying the maintain their system. We face legions of very expensive problems, which admittedly any one of them on their own would be manageable, but together they are crippling, once more the initial upfront cost is always seemingly cheaper than it ultimately ends up being over time.

Put me in with the "We are on the decline," crowd.

[May90]

Who said I do that? I just think the "piece of cloth" represents those ideals. And it represents those ideals to many.

It represents different things to different people. What does Swastika represent to you? Probably Nazism, right? Well, Catholics would have a word with you. American flag also has different meaning to different people. To me, for example, it just symbolizes the US as a country. It doesn't represent freedom or anything, since summarizing the US as a "freedomland" is very narrowminded and one-sided.

WWI started because of two vastly powerful opposing power blocks formed in EU to act as each others deterrence. By EU becoming polarised and radicalism crawling to power over years, WW1 happened. WW2 was a necessary follow up.
Now, these days the blocks are there, only this time on a worldwide scale. The only question is, when will the governments see it be too much of an effort to avoid the war.

The world has changed; there won't be infighting within the EU now, since the nature of interaction between those countries is different and built on diplomacy and economy. I guess some minor clashes could take place. I might be overly optimistic though.

[PC2]

Its rhetoric deary,

In general societies tend to decay after they have become very complex and very wealthy and when they enter the phase of trying the maintain their system. We face legions of very expensive problems, which admittedly any one of them on their own would be manageable, but together they are crippling, once more the initial upfront cost is always seemingly cheaper than it ultimately ends up being over time.

Put me in with the "We are on the decline," crowd.

I know you are knowledgeable about history and the demise of so many old civilizations. But you may be focusing on it too much through that lense. After you factor in the vastly different levels of technology and collective knowledge available, especially since the ending of WW2, comparisons from further back become apples to oranges.

[HumbleDuck]

It represents different things to different people. What does Swastika represent to you? Probably Nazism, right? Well, Catholics would have a word with you. American flag also has different meaning to different people. To me, for example, it just symbolizes the US as a country. It doesn't represent freedom or anything, since summarizing the US as a "freedomland" is very narrowminded and one-sided.


The world has changed; there won't be infighting within the EU now, since the nature of interaction between those countries is different and built on diplomacy and economy. I guess some minor clashes could take place. I might be overly optimistic though.

Well, not western EU, but what about Balkans?

[Theodarzna]

I know you are knowledgeable about history and the demise of so many old civilizations. But you may be focusing on it too much through that lense. After you factor in the vastly different levels of technology and collective knowledge available, especially since the ending of WW2, comparisons from further back become apples to oranges.

I factor that in, I just look at how we sustain it. In our case we fuel this on petrol, which is a finite resource and will eventually become prohibitively expensive. Much like the pillaging Empires of old that grew fat on looted booty, we grew fat on Petrol which is stored energy. However that isn't my only factor to project decline. We also have climate change whose costs we cannot even begin to measure and for which collectively we have done very little about. Finally I look at Birth rates in countries that become integrated into this global civilization. They hit the tank hard and those countries then depend on hoovering up people from those "New developing markets," in order to sustain wages at lower rates and keep housing markets afloat.

Technology is fine and dandy but each new victory over nature means the next one is that much more expensive and complex. All I am saying is our fancy gidgits and widgets doesn't mean we can outrun death.

EDIT: Basically tech is somewhat irrelevant, they just up the scale, the same mechanics of "the game," still apply now as they did at any other time period.

[hydrium]

Dude, Trump advocates for banning Muslims' entrance in the US, including the US citizens happening to be abroad - this goes against the constitution and the law, but he doesn't care. You call THIS pro-American, someone who denounces the foundation of the American society - and yet you cry about someone burning a piece of cloth symbolizing something? Does it make any sense to you?

On topic of burning flags in general, I see it as a pretty silly form of protest, but it is more complicated than you think. Someone burning the American flag does not necessarily hate the US, they might just be protesting against the current government, or the form the society took in. Someone might, for example, be a Confederation supporter (even to this day, there are people like this remaining). It is not all black and white.

You are a confirmed idiot spouting non-sense. A quick 20 second google search dispels every piece of nonsense you just spewed forth in your first paragraph.

Infracted for flaming

[PC2]

I factor that in, I just look at how we sustain it. In our case we fuel this on petrol, which is a finite resource and will eventually become prohibitively expensive. Much like the pillaging Empires of old that grew fat on looted booty, we grew fat on Petrol which is stored energy. However that isn't my only factor to project decline. We also have climate change whose costs we cannot even begin to measure and for which collectively we have done very little about. Finally I look at Birth rates in countries that become integrated into this global civilization. They hit the tank hard and those countries then depend on hoovering up people from those "New developing markets," in order to sustain wages at lower rates and keep housing markets afloat.

Technology is fine and dandy but each new victory over nature means the next one is that much more expensive and complex. All I am saying is our fancy gidgits and widgets doesn't mean we can outrun death.

EDIT: Basically tech is somewhat irrelevant, they just up the scale, the same mechanics of "the game," still apply now as they did at any other time period.

In order,
We are already in the process of adopting alternative fuels. They are viable.
The majority of climate change experts are not predicting it will be extreme enough to collapse civilization/agriculture.
Birth rates do need to be addressed, but it is a century long issue that can be addressed via incetivization.
Technology could theoretically cure death. Life doesn't have magical properties.

[Felya]

You don't find it a bit disrespectful when somebody burns the flag? Because when I see people who burn the US flag, I kind of want them shipped off to some hellhole of a country so they can see what a -real- terrible nation is. Might make them more humble and appreciative of the United States. They are the spoiled ones. It's amazing how we have men and women who put their lives on the line for that sort of trash.

No, it's no different than you bitching about small government. It's a far greater example of this country's freedom, than Twitter and tumbler posts calling you racist. Them burning the flag has nothing to do with soldiers, other than protesting the government that sends them to wars that do not protect American people at all.

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No, but I would ask them what flag does represent them and why don't they move there. To me they just look like idiots who stay in a place they don't like.

Ditto for your complaining about US government.

[Theodarzna]

In order,
We are already in the process of adopting alternative fuels. They are viable.
The majority of climate change experts are not predicting it will be extreme enough to collapse society and agriculture.
Birth rates do need to be addressed, but it is a century long issue that can be addressed via incetivization.
Technology could theoretically cure death. Life doesn't have magical properties.

Alternative fuels are not the same animal. Solar, Wind, ect are all "Per annual," fuels. Its akin to going from looting and pillaging to then having to sustain off the annual income of lands conquered, mechanically its the same problem. Petrol has a lot of stored energy. Why it built the world we have. Solar is however much energy we can catch per year. Which may be a great deal, but can we technologically harvest it, keep it, store it, and will it provide the boom we need as oil provided? Nuclear is its own ball game of danger which I don't feel the need to get into.

Climate Change alone does not have to be. Its not a single problem but the compounding and confluence of problems which undoes something.

Finally birth rates, many societies have faced this problem, all have invented some clever incentivization, None of it has ever worked.

I look at the hope for new wow gee wiz innovations to avert it all as being kind of Messianic optimism IMHO. You might as well tell me King Arthur is coming back to save us all.

[PC2]

Ditto for your complaining about US government.

?? I'm content with where I live, the government, and our rights. Of course we can always improve the governments efficiency over time.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Deccentralization is a proven survival tactic. It outlasted the Romans, the Mongols, the Ottomans and a plethora of other powers who exist only on paper and in the past.

It will outlast the chinese, and it will outlast the various psychotic religious cults that spring up like cancer.

And it will outlast you and your extroverted insecurities.

You don't matter, the West doesn't matter.

[PC2]

You don't matter, the West doesn't matter.

What concept matters the most?

[Deleted]

Meh, all Europe need to do is declare me the Eternal President of all European states and we're golden.

[Powerogue]

I actually think the erosion of families (both extended and nuclear) is actually what is leading to poor social cohesion, since family and children create social shareholders who have a vested interest in the welfare of society, whereas independent and unattached individuals are more likely to pursue self-interest ahead of social needs

It certainly isn't helping matters.