Queue: "If I can't click 1 button, I won't participate"

[Chrno]

EQ was actually my first MMO, but I faced the same problems there as I did early on in WoW. Just kind of quiet and don't stand out very much, so I've never been able to build the vast connections needed to play the game at the time.

But yep, if they did fix things around to help those who struggled to get stuff done...is that really a bad thing? I don't think it is.

I agree that something had to be done to help people finding groups.
However, i believe the disired effect could've been realised with a more fleshed-out LFG trool. This would've made group making allot easier while still keeping the control with the players. LFD has caused more harm to the way the game is now played using automated groups then it helped people out with creating groups.

GW2 solely relies on a LFG tool which has worked out quiet well if you ask me

[Tadkins]

I agree that something had to be done to help people finding groups.
However, i believe the disired effect could've been realised with a more fleshed-out LFG trool. This would've made group making allot easier while still keeping the control with the players. LFD has caused more harm to the way the game is now played using automated groups then it helped people out with creating groups.

LFD just connects you with people who already want to do the instance. I don't really see what's so bad about it. The end result is the same; a group is formed and the instance is run.

[Chrno]

LFD just connects you with people who already want to do the instance. I don't really see what's so bad about it. The end result is the same; a group is formed and the instance is run.

2 things are 'wrong' with it imho:
- I have no control over who joins the group or which group i join
- It's functioning cross-realm, making it impossible to build a server network. If it would be realm only you'd most likely group up more often with people you know from guilds you know.

But it's prob 1 of those things the community can never agree on and we've got LFD so i'll let it rest ^^. just felt like voicing my opinion on this for once

[Tadkins]

2 things are 'wrong' with it imho:
- I have no control over who joins the group or which group i join
- It's functioning cross-realm, making it impossible to build a server network. If it would be realm only you'd most likely group up more often with people you know from guilds you know.

If people had 100% control over their groups, it'd very well be possible that certain folks would never get into them. People who aren't 700+ would probably be passed over right now for random heroics, and that'd suck for them.

But it's prob 1 of those things the community can never agree on and we've got LFD so i'll let it rest ^^. just felt like voicing my opinion on this for once

Yup. Agree to disagree, etc.

[Cannibalus]

Im genuinely curious about this mentality. The whole: "If a queue is not available for me, I won't participate"...

Why even play an MMO if that is the type of game you want?

I don't understand how people have a desire to play WoW or any other MMO, but don't want to interact with other players to get stuff done in the game, or to participate in content in a game. Wasn't the whole premise of an MMO that you were going to be expected to interact with other players to play the game optimally, as the genre (MMO) suggests?

I'd argue that the whole game doesn't have to be Queueable. The game can still be plenty accessible to all types of players with parts of it not available to be queued into.

People who have this mentality, please help me understand why you feel this way? Why does the game have to revolve around your wants and desires of it being a complete queue fest?

People who don't feel this way, what is your argument for having all types of content, specifically content that is unable to be queued for?

The answer is simple. When people queue for content, they don't get judged, if they have to join a group that has some specific requirements, well, they get inspected. Some people just don't want their "awesome bubble" to burst so they choose the path of "single-player" content.

Pretty pathethic if you ask me, but hey they pay a sub that keeps the game going so caremeter should be below 0.

[Tadkins]

The answer is simple. When people queue for content, they don't get judged, if they have to join a group that has some specific requirements, well, they get inspected. Some people just don't want their "awesome bubble" to burst so they choose the path of "single-player" content.

Pretty pathethic if you ask me, but hey they pay a sub that keeps the game going so caremeter should be below 0.

Others are just self-conscious and are afraid of getting judged, called names, yelled at for a mistake, etc, and are reluctant to sign up for groups on there. I fall under that category.

[Cassidin]

When you are going to Mordor for the 100th time you would want a faster way to get there.

Which is why they originally added the "You must discover the dungeon entrance before you can queue"....... which was a great idea apart from one thing: People could remove dungeons they didn't like from the "Random Dungeon" list by simply not discovering it.

[melodramocracy]

100% this.

LFR is the highest difficulty a group of random people with no RL can achieve.

I don't agree with that for a minute.

LFR has been more difficult in the past than it is now... 5 mans that have been harder than LFR have been in queue systems. People bitch up a storm, but can also adjust / adapt, especially when there'd be an easier mode to fall back on.

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And it certainly had nothing to do with, y'know, very little actual content being released and/or the year-long lack of anything new.

This expansion lost most of it's players in the first 4-6 months. The issues you list are issues, but probably not significant ones.

[Nurvus]

People don't really know what they want

They think they do, but they don't.

I agree. Any meaningful changes to improve the game have to be implemented full-throttle, with no hand-holding.

[Deleted]

Others are just self-conscious and are afraid of getting judged, called names, yelled at for a mistake, etc, and are reluctant to sign up for groups on there. I fall under that category.

I simply don't want to waste time with people who set up insane entry requirements for content. With fully upgraded Tanaan gear, you overgear Mythic dungeons by 35 points, and still get declined if you are not a tank or healer in a time of shortage of such roles. On the other hand, you have people who meet gear requirements, but are too dumb to execute mechanics properly. But you cannot tell that by the gearscore. You cannot even tell this by the heroic dungeon achievement, because by the time Mythic dungeons were introduced, heroics could be facerolled without caring for mechanics.

An automatic matchmaking removes such irrelevant metrics from the equation. There is a minimum requirement to enter, and nothing else. A truly fair and impartial system.

I remember that there have been raid groups in Classic who took a newbie to a ZG or AQ20 or MC run just for filling up the spot. These days are gone. Most people are quite selfish now.

[Tadkins]

I remember that there have been raid groups in Classic who took a newbie to a ZG or AQ20 or MC run just for filling up the spot. These days are gone. Most people are quite selfish now.

Eh, I wish I could believe that. I couldn't land a spot in any kind of raid group back in those days if my life depended on it.

[kary]

Eh, I wish I could believe that. I couldn't land a spot in any kind of raid group back in those days if my life depended on it.

You admittedly said you were soft spoken/not super social, so ofc this wouldn't be your reality.
Social invites are still a thing, though. Granted we don't do them any more, but when we would do H HFC/BRF on alts, there would always be a welfare case casual, or girlfriend or someone with us.

Depends on your network, I guess.

[primalmatter]

That's why no one talks in this game and no one offers help or advice. That happened years ago by now I realized most of the crowd is "I play how I wanna you don't pay my 15$ to tell me how to play" kind. There's simply no point trying to help anyone improve because 99% of the time it's "hurr durr how dare you, mind your own business". So I do. As do mostly everyone else.

We grew to accept the thought most randoms won't improve and it's not worth trying. Content designed for "randoms" needs to be tuned having that in mind. You run a dungeon where a mage only spams ice lance and healer only ever uses flash heal and is oom most of the time, when he is he doesn't drink just passively waits while not healing. But no, you can't tell them anything - they will not change their playstyle and also take a grave offense about "unasked unsolicited advice". That's why we can't have random matchmaking for raiding.

That's why ghostcrawler said only minority of playerbase strives to rise to the challenge. And that's why "all inclusive" content ends at Kazzak, LFR and heroic dungeons. Challenging gameplay is most often restricted to guilds, groups of friends and pre-arranged teams.

People sit and complain about inflated ilvl requirements in pugs but that's a by product of a culture where there's zero incentive both from game and from the players to try to be helpful towards others and there's zero punishment for being anti-social either (for example Blizzard vague stance about "loot rules" which makes ninja looters in 99% of the cases go unpunished).

Advocates of queue say "I don't wanna be judged, I don't wanna jump through anyone hoops", but paradoxically that creates an issue where everyone is pre-judged, the content is lowered to the lowest common denominator, and anything above that is left out - see mythic and mythic+ in legion.

Then people who don't want to step out of their comfort zones and join guilds or lead groups are left at the mercy of the worst - people who lead groups not because they stepped up for the job, but because they only think what they can gain from you. Therefore all the pugs "LFM x must have 20 ilvls above me, all loot I want is reserved". Players who join their groups are viewed not as other people, but as pawns to play them. Since there's generally a "hands off" policy, read: "his group his rules" there's little incentive to make fair groups and little downside to make shameless "boost me" groups.

Pugging is indeed "darwinism" as someone pointed out in this thread but it's easy to say "it needs to end" or "it's killing the community" without actually suggesting how would it happen that the community would suddenly hold each other's hands instead of everyone playing their own game within a game.

People can complain that there's a division between "haves" and "have nots" and those that "have" only end up "having more" while poor become poorer and excluded get marginalized even further. But that's how it goes when everyone minds their own business and those who mind their business the best multiplies their gains the fastest. People with gear get more gear, people with gold get more gold etc.

You are right of course.

The only way to fix things at this point is to do so slowly at the lowest level first. Random groups need a complete removal of kick restrictions and a increase in difficulty of at least twice of what it was in Wod. WoD mythic should of been what heroic dungeons were. The community can ill afford to keep going down the road of if it has a pulse it gets to progress.

Blizzard on some level is starting to realize this to I believe as they are trying to create a end game around both the solo player and the progression player. I think that at the end of the day titanforge is going to make it all backfire on them but the attempt is at last being tried.

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Others are just self-conscious and are afraid of getting judged, called names, yelled at for a mistake, etc, and are reluctant to sign up for groups on there. I fall under that category.

If you are afraid to fail you are afraid to ever get better at anything.

You shouldn't be surprised if you run into dead ends constantly with such a horrendous attitude.

[Tadkins]

You admittedly said you were soft spoken/not super social, so ofc this wouldn't be your reality.
Social invites are still a thing, though. Granted we don't do them any more, but when we would do H HFC/BRF on alts, there would always be a welfare case casual, or girlfriend or someone with us.

Depends on your network, I guess.

I've got a decent guild now and am 5/13 mythic currently, at least. Though I do appreciate the existence of LFR and LFD for those periods of time when guilds fall apart and we're in between raid groups.

People just like to talk about how supposedly the community in Vanilla and BC was just so much better, but...I didn't see it. I was there and I didn't really experience it. I would have liked to know where the "community" was when I was struggling to get groups going.

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If you are afraid to fail you are afraid to ever get better at anything.

You shouldn't be surprised if you run into dead ends constantly with such a horrendous attitude.

That's not true at all. I have no issues with learning and failing occasionally. I just don't think people need to jump the gun so quickly and rage at folks for making a mistake, followed by a kick. Those are the types with the horrendous attitudes.

[Lochton]

Im genuinely curious about this mentality. The whole: "If a queue is not available for me, I won't participate"...

Why even play an MMO if that is the type of game you want?

I don't understand how people have a desire to play WoW or any other MMO, but don't want to interact with other players to get stuff done in the game, or to participate in content in a game. Wasn't the whole premise of an MMO that you were going to be expected to interact with other players to play the game optimally, as the genre (MMO) suggests?

I'd argue that the whole game doesn't have to be Queueable. The game can still be plenty accessible to all types of players with parts of it not available to be queued into.

People who have this mentality, please help me understand why you feel this way? Why does the game have to revolve around your wants and desires of it being a complete queue fest?

People who don't feel this way, what is your argument for having all types of content, specifically content that is unable to be queued for?

If you live by that when playing an MMO, then I have to say you are lazy.

Queues aren't the future of gaming, it just solves some things that was a bump to the game itself. The amount of content now to be queued and not queued for seems fine.

[Mosotti]

If you need to spend hours to gather people to do something in the game it's most likely because:

1) You want to do something that doesn't interest other players, i.e it's worthless content for character progression and/or designed poorly.

2) Server population is too low to find like-minded players interested in said content, which means the game is unpopular / bad.

3) You have gained bad reputation amongst the community because you've been either an ass or a miserable team player.

Does it matter? It doesn't even need to be "hours" for a single action. Imagine it would be not LFD and I would need to look for a fucking tank for an infinity, while sitting in a fucking city and read the retarded chat. How exciting! Now I can just queue and take care of my shit until it pops or not, I don't even care, because I'm actually doing something that I think it's at least a little fun, not just staring at a fucking mailbox in SW.

Sure there are guilds, but I don't play long enough to be a valuable guild member. Now if Blizzard wants to do exclusive non queue content, good for them. I won't most likely touch it, and then it comes to "how many people are like me and will get bored with the accessible content and then leave"...

[primalmatter]

Does it matter? It doesn't even need to be "hours" for a single action. Imagine it would be not LFD and I would need to look for a fucking tank for an infinity, while sitting in a fucking city and read the retarded chat. How exciting! Now I can just queue and take care of my shit until it pops or not, I don't even care, because I'm actually doing something that I think it's at least a little fun, not just staring at a fucking mailbox in SW.

Sure there are guilds, but I don't play long enough to be a valuable guild member. Now if Blizzard wants to do exclusive non queue content, good for them. I won't most likely touch it, and then it comes to "how many people are like me and will get bored with the accessible content and then leave"...

Can you really keep making the threat that if they don't lower the content to the lowest bar you will leave?

Look at WoD. The expac designed for people who wanted facebook games... how did that go?

Find a guild barring that just tank or heal. Yeah pure classes have harder times finding groups at low ilv but it isn't some herculean task. Before I found private servers I used to reroll on a fresh realm and level to cap. It never took me more then three weeks to be back raiding mythic during the last tier of mop and wod.

The only thing stopping you. Is well to be blunt you.

[Sansnom]

Can you really keep making the threat that if they don't lower the content to the lowest bar you will leave?

Look at WoD. The expac designed for people who wanted facebook games... how did that go?

The post was not about difficulty level or facebooks as you call it, although you seems VERY familar with those games.

It was talking about finding groups before LFD, which was a tiresome process. I DO NOT CARE if you did not have a problem find tanks/healers or have numerous friends that would join your group. It is great you can do that. You can still do that with your friends.

Sitting in trade looking was a boring process which was wasted time. Sitting in city spamming for over 30 mins is not a funtime. And certainly it is not some a person levelling would do. They would be out in the zones levelling which were usually fairly empty. Which means all those old dungeons were skipped.

You had a difference experience, good for you. You do not represent the other players. Some players have trouble finding group. LFD and LFR fixes that problem. If people did not have trouble finding groups, or it was not a major problem, then why LFD? Blizzard has data. They KNOW what is people are doing and not doing.

Find a guild barring that just tank or heal. Yeah pure classes have harder times finding groups at low ilv but it isn't some herculean task. Before I found private servers I used to reroll on a fresh realm and level to cap. It never took me more then three weeks to be back raiding mythic during the last tier of mop and wod.

The only thing stopping you. Is well to be blunt you.

I would interested in how many hours rather than weeks. Is that three weeks one hour per day or eight?

[primalmatter]

The post was not about difficulty level or facebooks as you call it, although you seems VERY familar with those games.

It was talking about finding groups before LFD, which was a tiresome process. I DO NOT CARE if you did not have a problem find tanks/healers or have numerous friends that would join your group. It is great you can do that. You can still do that with your friends.

Sitting in trade looking was a boring process which was wasted time. Sitting in city spamming for over 30 mins is not a funtime. And certainly it is not some a person levelling would do. They would be out in the zones levelling which were usually fairly empty. Which means all those old dungeons were skipped.

You had a difference experience, good for you. You do not represent the other players. Some players have trouble finding group. LFD and LFR fixes that problem. If people did not have trouble finding groups, or it was not a major problem, then why LFD? Blizzard has data. They KNOW what is people are doing and not doing.



I would interested in how many hours rather than weeks. Is that three weeks one hour per day or eight?

First part.

People did dungeons while leveling all the time before cata save for the really out of the way ones for their faction and if you are spaming trade for 30mins at any point in this game for a five man you are doing it wrong.

As for time.. I would say roughly 2 hours or so a night on average. I am definitely a hardcore player but I didn't log every night and I did spend longer some night then others to gear up. Over all though I would say 42 hours would be a pretty close number even if I am ball parking it a bit.

[kary]

I've got a decent guild now and am 5/13 mythic currently, at least. Though I do appreciate the existence of LFR and LFD for those periods of time when guilds fall apart and we're in between raid groups.

People just like to talk about how supposedly the community in Vanilla and BC was just so much better, but...I didn't see it. I was there and I didn't really experience it. I would have liked to know where the "community" was when I was struggling to get groups going.

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That's not true at all. I have no issues with learning and failing occasionally. I just don't think people need to jump the gun so quickly and rage at folks for making a mistake, followed by a kick. Those are the types with the horrendous attitudes.

The community wasn't better.
People didn't change. You just had no choice but to interact with people back then.