Well, it's happening, Trump is starting to lose bad in the polls..

[Theodarzna]

This is why absolutes are stupid. Being pro-nafta doesn't mean you're pro-worker's rights, as evinced by republican legislative thrusts that have been going on at the state and local levels. It's only "a wild ride" if you haven't been actually paying attention. That some industries lost jobs is undeniable. That we have seen larger job growth in other industries is just as undeniable.

Just go back and look at the arguments that were being made by the parties about why they were voting how they were for nafta. Dems thought it would cause job loss, which it did, and didn't believe the net benefit would outweigh that, they were wrong. Republicans did it because they thought it would cause net job growth and overall more prosperity, they were right.

If you're pro-workers rights, you should look at what the parties are doing with regards to union bargaining power, and who is more likely to place pro-union judges in the supreme court.

Your arguments just make it look like you're an extremist, all bias, no thought.

....
Is it that you ignore what's happened to those countries as a result of that foreign interaction? Improved workers rights, better working conditions, higher standard of living, bigger market driving their economy; when you choose to ignore the benefits and focus on the downsides, that's called bias.

Your words dude, you need to learn how to make a consistent point.

Are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't fault Democrats for passing NAFTA, and pushing for TPP? That it's all really the republican's fault? That the Democrat's don't deserve the nasty label of traitor? Or is it now that TPP and NAFTA are great wonderful things and improve workers rights somehow? Oh? I am to not fault the Democrats who were involved in NAFTA, and in TPP, because ALL Republicans support it, BUT.... TPP AND NAFTA IMPROVE WORKERS RIGHTS APPARENTLY ANYWAY!! The logic here then is that your trying to tell someone whose chief anger at Democrats is for betraying workers in their own country with these agreements, that it both isn't the Democrats fault, AND that those bills were 'totes good things anyway and you should thank the Democrats? Or Republicans?

See you're all over the road man, like if this was a highway you'd be pulled over for drunk driving.

[Detritivores]

Having looked further I was mistaken, its the Green Party, not Stein herself, but for some reason the Green Party platform endorses Homeopathy of all the dumb things.

I agree that's super dumb, but am relieved that Stein herself doesn't subscribe to any such idea. I wonder what it would take to strip that from the platform? I''d almost rather sign up for the 2 party fuck-me-in-the-ass-oligarchy than support a party who supports homeopathy, even if only in writing. They can't claim to be all sciencey on climate change and turn around and endorse sham medicine.

[Theodarzna]

I agree that's super dumb, but am relieved that Stein herself doesn't subscribe to any such idea. I wonder what it would take to strip that from the platform? I''d almost rather sign up for the 2 party fuck-me-in-the-ass-oligarchy than support a party who supports homeopathy, even if only in writing. They can't claim to be all sciencey on climate change and turn around and endorse sham medicine.

Its a mystery why it keeps getting shoved in there, apparently there is always a fight over it and even though its a reviled position it keeps getting in.

[Detritivores]

Its a mystery why it keeps getting shoved in there, apparently there is always a fight over it and even though its a reviled position it keeps getting in.

Any group of Greens seems to include a fair number of those who have gone off the homeopathy/antiGMO/antibiotics-will-kill-everyone deep end. I see it in my own family. We're all roughly aligned with the greens, but there's a handful of us that have fallen into pseudoscience territory. It's a relative minority though. Not nearly enough to put their nonsense into the "family political platform" if it were up to popular opinion, but I guess for the greens there are enough of the crazies that that's a reality? I don't know. I will investigate further.

Just seems patently ridiculous to run a doctor as your candidate while endorsing the most reviled pseudo-medicine you can find. Not a great way to be taken seriously.

[Eviscero]

I have plenty of problem with it. It's a form of fraud. Granted, it's a form of fraud with a long tradition, but that doesn't make it any less fraudulent.

(deleted)

EDIT: More on topic, Corey Lewandowski just left Trump's campaign.

[Bollocks]

I am torn between Clinton having profound luck, or Trump being something more deliberate just to make sure Hillary is the winner, hell I would not be personally surprised if the vote totals haven't been drawn up.

But then again I am ever the pessimist. Not that I would ever consider a Trump victory a good thing.

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Loss of future earnings is absolutely a solid basis if a company has a "Right to Profit," likewise as I said earlier the number of NAFTA cases has gone up from less than 10 to about 600 cases pending now. They wouldn't be launching such suites at their expense if they didn't believe they had a really good shot of winning and exacting some fine to recoup their loses. They aren't stupid.

And creating 2 million jobs says nothing? What Kind of Jobs? How much pay? How reliable are the hours? What are the benefits? How easily can you be let go?

For example if I fire someone and then just hire them every 1st of the month than fire them at the end of the month, only to rehire them I can claim to have created 12 jobs that year instead of one. Of course the 12 jobs were all temp jobs at less pay and with no benefits, but whatever, 12 JOBS!!! USA USA USA USA!!!!!

There are specifics in which the right to Profit applies. And we discussed this already, it only applies to laws that damage companies without a proper justification. Increase in wages and public health laws do not qualify for a ISDS. Its like you did not read the sections I pointed to.

And that potential loss was recouped long ago. According to the USTR nearly 98% of companies exporting goods in 2013 were SME's for 34% of the total value of goods exported. Totalling a grand sum of 782 billion dollars
Also the USTR in the same paper indicates that every billion dollars of US exports supported nearly 5,600 jobs. Applying that to the $782 billion associated with SME's and you get 4.38 million jobs supported through SME exports. Something that would not be possible without nafta

The economic consensus on nafta is that in the overall it was a positive trade deal for the USA and mexico

http://trade.gov/press/press-release...eet-060315.pdf

[Theodarzna]

Homeopathy includes a very broad list of treatments, some with no scientific evidence of their benefit or harm, some with huge bodies of evidence for their benefit or harm.

Many products which are 'FDA approved' and go by some pharma name are closely related to, or synthetically produced versions of compounds found in plants and herbs which one can also get in the form of a 'homeopathic' pill.

So saying homeopathy is a form of fraud is a pretty silly over generalization.

We could also talk about some real, legally defined and prosecuted fraud if you like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al_settlements

Homeopathy solutions are actually not herbal extracts. One of the "laws of Homeopathy," is the Law of Dilution, which oddly enough goes as such "The more diluted in water it is, the stronger it is." Which is completely insane, so in effect most Homeopathic medicine is almost entirely water with a unnoticeable fraction of it being some herbal extract.

[Spectral]

Homeopathy includes a very broad list of treatments...

Are you sure you're not thinking of holistic medicine? Homeopathy is the practice of diluting things to undetectable levels. It's literally just giving people water.

[Eviscero]

Are you sure you're not thinking of holistic medicine? Homeopathy is the practice of diluting things to undetectable levels. It's literally just giving people water.

Ah of course, my mistake. Of course that is nonsense.

[Detritivores]

(deleted)

I was so prepared to throw down over homeopathy...

[Bollocks]

There are specifics in which the right to Profit applies. And we discussed this already, it only applies to laws that damage companies without a proper justification. Increase in wages and public health laws do not qualify for a ISDS. Its like you did not read the sections I pointed to.

And that potential loss was recouped long ago. According to the USTR nearly 98% of companies exporting goods in 2013 were SME's for 34% of the total value of goods exported. Totalling a grand sum of 782 billion dollars
Also the USTR in the same paper indicates that every billion dollars of US exports supported nearly 5,600 jobs. Applying that to the $782 billion associated with SME's and you get 4.38 million jobs supported through SME exports. Something that would not be possible without nafta

The economic consensus on nafta is that in the overall it was a positive trade deal for the USA and mexico

http://trade.gov/press/press-release...eet-060315.pdf

Forgot to add even if you were right where has all the income gone?
https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publi...he-income-gone

[Detritivores]

Are you sure you're not thinking of holistic medicine? Homeopathy is the practice of diluting things to undetectable levels. It's literally just giving people water.

It's shocking to me how much homeopathy and holistic medicine get conflated.

[Eviscero]

I was so prepared to throw down over homeopathy...

Clearly I was too ready to throw down about big pharma ;p

[Ripster42]

Your words dude, you need to learn how to make a consistent point.

Are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't fault Democrats for passing NAFTA, and pushing for TPP? That it's all really the republican's fault? That the Democrat's don't deserve the nasty label of traitor? Or is it now that TPP and NAFTA are great wonderful things and improve workers rights somehow? Oh? I am to not fault the Democrats who were involved in NAFTA, and in TPP, because ALL Republicans support it, BUT.... TPP AND NAFTA IMPROVE WORKERS RIGHTS APPARENTLY ANYWAY!! The logic here then is that your trying to tell someone whose chief anger at Democrats is for betraying workers in their own country with these agreements, that it both isn't the Democrats fault, AND that those bills were 'totes good things anyway and you should thank the Democrats? Or Republicans?

See you're all over the road man, like if this was a highway you'd be pulled over for drunk driving.

Yes, I'm telling you that you shouldn't fault democrats for passing nafta because they didn't vote for it as a voting bloc, and were not the ones pushing for expanding presidential negotiating power with regards to TPP as a voting bloc, which you've said in the past. Since the republicans overwhelmingly were the votes required to pass, you should say that republicans are responsible for nafta. Dems don't "deserve the nasty label of traitor" because traitor implies that they're actively working against them, instead of, as a voting bloc, voting how union reps wanted them to vote, against nafta.

Yes, improved workers rights in those countries. If you're worried about workers rights in this country look at who is more likely to put pro-union judges on the supreme court, and which party is more likely to dismantle more public unions. TPP is probably going to be passed anyway, even against however the democratic party votes as a bloc. They don't have a history of being as negative towards free trade agreements as republicans have been for them. If you were wondering, me talking about worker's rights in foreign countries was in response to your question about what happens when companies move some manufacturing to now cheaper countries.

It's weird that you complain about workers rights, in this country as leveraged against foreign workers, complain when programs improve the rights of those foreign workers, then conflate my responses about worker's rights in this country, and foreign worker's rights. Again, being pro or anti-free trade doesn't mean you're pro or anti-worker's rights, though some mistakenly conflate this as well. Your lack of even slightly nuanced opinion is again, extremist.

[Breccia]

6.4 million came from the hats n shirts iirc.

It doesn't matter. Either buying the hats causes a portion of the proceeded to get donated to his campaign -- in which case, they are donations and still count -- or, you don't rc. The $1.4 million is still factually false.

Again, wouldn't you rather a President who can run his own campaign so cheaply, so streamline and with a skeleton crew of staff?

Firstly, I would never use that as the deciding factor as to who I vote for.

Secondly, he's been getting a lot of "free advertising" in the form of the media, which he's now starting to intentionally piss off. Poisoning the well is not a good business, nor political, practice.

Thirdly, again, a lot of his own funds are in the form of loans, very likely (based on his mandatory available tax forms as I posted) at a high interest rate. What does it mean when he loans his own campaign money?

No really, I want you to think about it, and answer it. Think hard.

EDIT: Hold on, maybe you'll believe this source.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/19/politi...pac/index.html

[Wildtree]

Pulling the thread back on topic.

Lewandowski no longer Trump's campaign manager.

[Detritivores]

Clearly I was too ready to throw down about big pharma ;p

I'm glad we realized we were on the same team before things got out of hand :P

[Theodarzna]

Forgot to add even if you were right where has all the income gone?
https://www.minneapolisfed.org/publi...he-income-gone

Welp, I guess we should ignore all the data on income stagnation, the people who've benefited from it say its all good. *PHEW*

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Pulling the thread back on topic.

Lewandowski no longer Trump's campaign manager.

Trump will likely see a rebound in the polls as the media grows desperate for ratings. If they ignore Trump to starve him out and ensure a Hillary presidency, they will have a MONTHS in which their ratings will remain lack luster as people check out of a boring coronation.

More over Clinton's camp will start trying to get Trump some juice since without him this election will be an even bigger low turnout election. Idk if Hillary wants to come in with the double cloud of "Unliked," and so low turnout of an election practically none of the country voted for you or cared.

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Yes, I'm telling you that you shouldn't fault democrats for passing nafta because they didn't vote for it as a voting bloc,

Okay, right there you have something resembling a point.

and were not the ones pushing for expanding presidential negotiating power with regards to TPP as a voting bloc, which you've said in the past.

I've pointed out that plenty of Dem's voted for fast track and supported TPP.

They don't have a history of being as negative towards free trade agreements as republicans have been for them. If you were wondering, me talking about worker's rights in foreign countries was in response to your question about what happens when companies move some manufacturing to now cheaper countries.

So by your own words the Democrats don't give much of a shit about Working People that vote, IN OUR ELECTIONS. Of course it also ignores people that get fucked over in other countries, such as the Mexican farmer whose way of life ended with NAFTA to become a slave labourer elsewhere or to be the imported labourer with no rights here in the US..... which Clinton eagerly agreed to and Democrats have not challenged since.

They don't have a history of being as negative towards free trade agreements as republicans have been for them. If you were wondering, me talking about worker's rights in foreign countries was in response to your question about what happens when companies move some manufacturing to now cheaper countries.

If the Democrats won't go to the Mat for Working Class folk, why should they vote, give money or help the Judascrat.... I mean Democrats?
Yes, Working Class interests said "This will fuck us over, don't do it, we backed you, we gave you money, manpower and votes, don't stab us in the back." And Bill Clinton Red Wedding'd the Working class pretty brutally.

Yes, improved workers rights in those countries. If you're worried about workers rights in this country look at who is more ...

How convenient of the wealthy and Bill Clinton, screw over your own people, throw them in the Moloch, make a tidy profit for you and your friends and claim you did some heroic deed that cost him and his ilk NOTHING, and enriched them generously. That isn't some noble deed, that is just sacrificing another and coming up with a rationalization.

Again, being pro or anti-free trade doesn't mean you're pro or anti-worker's rights,

These agreements have nothing to do with "Free Trade," trade barriers were low well before any of these agreements.

[Ripster42]

Welp, I guess we should ignore all the data on income stagnation, the people who've benefited from it say its all good. *PHEW*

So which of the only two parties that have a chance of actually doing something about it, has passed right to work/anti-union laws? Which of the only two parties that have a chance of actually doing something about it, is arguing for minimum wage increases? I don't know where you live in california, but it's not like california doesn't elect republican representatives to the house. You know, the party that is overwhelmingly for the things you say you're against. NAFTA, TPP, removing worker protections, removing union bargaining power.

[Narwal]

A 12-16 year run with Democrats will be okay as long as they increase economic prosperity. If not we are going to rip them apart!

I agree. Governing is mostly a luck sport, industry/citizens create the major economic fluctuations with or without the governments help and regardless of governments regulation on them. Clearly a majority of people are in favor of the social changes we're seeing today, and because of that we'll probably see Democrat control remain. This is of course until one of two things happens, an economic hardship measured against what most people feel is the normal, or a major international conflict. This is why we see Obama trying to set "new norms" for the economy, in order to be able to say the economy is currently in a normal state, as well as trying to obscure US involvement in foreign conflict, or minimizing terrorist attacks as mere domestic issues and has ordered departments to scrub data reporting on the strength of some of these terrorism entities.