Wow Legion : PvP Everyone is Everyone

[Jotaux]

If you are a better player, 10% difference in power in 100 ilvls gives a mythic raider no excessive ways to beat you.

Which is about the difference from honor gear to conquest gear.

[Woa]

I've said this since they announced the changes. What's the point if your gear doesnt give any advantage. Day 1 of level 110 pvp is going to be the same as the day before the next expansion. I read never more than a 3% gear/damage increase than someone else. Currently it's like 20?% I dont know but skill is one thing and gear is one thing.

I enjoy seeing that decked out dude who spent time and effort to be stronger. Not the guy whos better at keybinding. What else is there to work for? Just keep resetting your talents to get some dumbass marker by your avatar? It's always been about gear, why isn't it now? This is not a first person shooter, you should get stronger if you work at it.

[Deleted]

So you're mad that pvp is less gear reliant and more skill reliant? Am I reading that correctly

So lets take a look with your logic at pve:

So - Pve should also be about skill, not gear.
It shouldn't be about how many raids you've been in, or how many LFR's u've done if that's the case ( all depending on stage ).
It's exactly the same. The game has to be skill dependant ofcourse, but if you don't get any rewards, for progress and time spent put together, it doesn't give the same feeling.

Imagine being a super hardcore raider, and still run around with the same gear as a newly dinged. How good is that feeling? Yes your skilllevel is better, but no reward.

It's a mmo, people want and need rewards.
Yes there is prestige, but that is just not enough tbh, even tho i really like the prestige system.

Gear matters, and it should do, this is not a Moba game, this is not a FPS game, this is a MMORPG game.

[Woa]

Then you shouldn't be rewarded with kills. You should have to put time in to get better gear, it's not that hard. Obviously you don't like it enough so you shouldn't be able to crush people. You get some gear, you start getting stronger and you start getting kills, thats the reward. You shouldn't just be able to hit 110 and be at the same strength level as people who invest time into pvp. Go PvE

[Drosul]

I like how all the clueless randoms think you will not be required to grind before being able to get into pvp.

The grind , in order to be able to complete in a PVP scenario, still exists. It's 50k honor for your talents + the artifact now, instead of the 27k honor for the starting set before. You could grind the honor set in trashran without even ever having to pvp, just by picking up treasures and grinding mobs. It took 8 hours max. The new grind takes much longer.

Was just coming in here to post this..... It's staggering how clueless people still are as to how this is going to work....


Current system:

-Nothing ---> Honor: Has a minimum ilvl provided by template (I feel like many people had no idea this was already a thing), but the gear gap is massive, and PvP viability requires 2 trinkets (for the set damage reduction) and often your pvp 4 pc bonus, so you need to grind an honor set.... This can be done in mere hours

-Honor ----> Conquest: There is a substantial catchup mechanic for this as the season progresses, it can be done in a few hours of 2v2s, can be purchased outright via "Champion's Honor" tokens and is supplimented by gear boxes from Ashran, RBGs, and for the first half of the expansion, winning Coliseum. This is quite literally the absolute easiest and fastest this system has ever been... to the point where I geared out 9 toons this season.

-Conquest+ : No, you're already done, and on equal footing. Go "git gud", or something.


Legion system:

-Nothing----> Honor viable: Your minimum ilvl significantly closer in power to the top end, so you're better off gear wise.... Unfortunately, your honor grind to true viability is nearly doubled, depending on where your important PvP talents are located in their respective trees. Not having essential abilities puts you further behind the curve than being undergeared... honestly. This is a nerf people.

-Gearing up low end--->mid levels: I'll concede this part is probably buffed, if anything, as PvE gear will once again be useful for PvP.... Simply running LFR, Normal, or Heroic as you normally would will get you to mid level gear thresholds. Crafting will also get you there, as will world quests, random legendary drops, and hell even normal instances have a chance to reward you with good gear. The only problems here are two fold: First, it will be entirely RNG based, rather than directly purchasable. Secondly (and where the problem comes in) this is going to be where most people cap out, and if you haven't noticed, this is only the MID levels.

-Mid---> High End gearing: Are you a Mythic Raider, hilariously lucky, High level Mythic Dungeon Runner, or a Gladiator Level player? Oh, then too bad, because you won't get here. But even if you do qualify for the drops, you're still going to need a healthy dose of luck.... as you still gear via RNG boxes, and as anyone who's prayed for a specific slot drop from Ashran crates can attest to how fun and rewarding it is getting the same damn piece of loot you didn't need 6x in a row. But if you aren't one of those special snowflakes at that level, then good news, because now as you try to gain rating you aren't only fighting a skills gap, you're ALSO fighting a GEAR GAP! How fun! That is of course assuming it's even possible to push the rating required for elite gear, since this expansion is doing absolutely nothing about horrible, game destroying rating deflation that has already destroyed every single non 3v3 bracket in WoD, and one that only looks to get considerably worse in Legion as people are even further incentivized to avoid the rated PvP system altogether via PvE gearing and the Prestige system.



Now then, I've explained how gearing works, so let's talk about the PvP itself. Actually I don't feel like retyping an entire novel about the various ways the Legion PvP system currently blows or the various MECHANICAL problems that currently crippling it (problems that by and large cannot simply be fixed by mere numbers tuning, or pvp template tuning).... So how about I just direct you to my thread on Legion Beta General forums so you can get a feeling for where we're at right now

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745065533

[Zaanm4n]

My issue is that we still can't level as heals, and I do a lot of PVP while I'm leveling, but also want to quest and do non-PVP things.

They did say they have improved the lvling as a healer potential. What do you want them to do let you do as much dps as a normal dps ? :/ why would anyone be a dps then ? your main is heals you will not be doing as much dmg as a main dps, deal with it.

[SteveRocks]

Hello, i'm the only one that feels that the PVP feeling from legion will be empty?
Since i can work very hard to get a good gear for my character, play hours for days and my friend who just get until level 110 will have almost the same power as me?

How empty has become the part of being a bit different in the game?
- Your items dont matter.
- Your Talents dont matter (since i can change then anytime i want how much i want for free).
- Your Specialization dont matter (since i can change it also anytime).

So whats matter in PVP? Get PVP talents to reset?
No more wow feeling like: "look this is my strong rogue", now is jsut "look this is my 'just get level 110 rogue' ".
I'm not talking about grinding gears, but i believe iLVL scaling could work better. Blizzard is just putting everyone in the same bag and throwing in the river.
Imagine you raiding with the same stats just 0.1% calculated by ur iLVL? Would be cool?

Good times when you had to plan your to make a build, calculate the best choices, work hard to be a champion!
We live in the years of no effort, everything on your hands.
I believe they are driving WoW into the same role as Diablo went( and its not a good place for a game, diablo mechanics is terrible nowdays)...

Oof! That was really hard to get through. Anyway I think I understand what you were trying to write and I have to disagree. These PvP changes are awesome.

Why do you want gear to determine your ability to compete in PvP? Do you lack the skill? Or do you just like "working," towards something?

There will still be gear and titles and mounts and god knows what else for you to obtain and show off your hard work. These changes make PvP more accessible and help to balance out the game. I really don't see what the problem is.

[ComputerNerd]

So you're mad that pvp is less gear reliant and more skill reliant? Am I reading that correctly

Yes, despite any attempt to package it as some other reason that is entirely what it is about.
Gear progression in PvP sucks, due to lack of control over your opponents.
It places those starting late in an unfair position.

If you want to convince us you are superior at PvP, then do it on equal terms.

If it was really about the reward, then why would the gear need to be raised as an issue.

[Deleted]

I don't like the PVP system in Legion.

"Everyone now has a more equal footing with the removal with gear!" No. It's always been equal if you play any kind of higher end pvp because people will simply not be undergeared. Theres no customisation, nothing. They've made the random BGs more equal kind of in exchange for removing gear progression which I personally enjoyed and gives me more incentie to pvp anyway. People are going to be pvping naked which completely ruins it for me too. Only mythical raiders will have an advantage which completely contradicts their overall attitude to pvp this expansion and is a massive fuck you to loyal pvp players.

Theres been nothing of value added to pvp for Legion ( I personally think theres been more taken away), only a talent progression which will be non existent as soon as you prestige and a couple of cosmetic arenas which do look nice but don't really add much.

[Jotaux]

snip

Basically what I have been saying, there is going to be a much larger gear gap in legion compared to WoD making gear that much more important.

I mean its great for me, I'm going to be more powerful than most of the other people in pvp but it doesn't seem like thats fair.

[Nihilan]

And people thought that honor botting and afks in BGs was bad right now on live? Just wait till the masses start trying to grind honor for their pvp talents.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of... Are they nerfing the HP output of Assram?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Skilled players will still beat the unskilled. Skilled players will know how to spec their characters, unskilled won't. Skilled players will have wins with specific characters, unskilled players won't (other than in randoms) and so on.

How much value anything in-game has is entirely up to your own mindset. I refuse to believe that anyone worth his/her title settled for certain talents for "identity" over performance in the first place. It's just another case of appealing to emotion.

Rejoice, PVP will be about the player and not the gear! Although I highly doubt that part until there's results to be seen...pretty sure the PVPers that mean business will do whatever they can for that 10% advantage...

[Jotaux]

Rejoice, PVP will be about the player and not the gear!

It will be more about the gear in legion than in WoD.

[Xada]

You're doing PvP for the gear? Is this a new form of irony?

So what if I have fun working towards acquiring gear, then optimizing that gear, my spec, and play style to kick ass? I like a good fight against an equal opponent just as much as the next guy, but I still like getting gear, making goals, and optimizing my shit just as much. The funny thing is people in this thread are praising blizzard on this decision, but I expect pvp to tank hard when this goes live. You're still going to cry about class imbalance because you always need a crutch.

[PrairieChicken]

"Pvp is less gear reliant"

Hahaha hohohohoho hehehehehee

[Deleted]

PvP will rely more on gear during Legion than currently

It's currently easy and fast to get on par with other players on PvP gear, and basically once people have all earned enough conquest points, they're all equal when it comes to gear

In Legion, mythic raiders will have an easier time gearing up for PvP than most of the PvP players, and considering the RNG drops, there will always be people that will have an edge over you when it comes to gear, awhile PvP gear is currently "capped"

[Wries]

I somewhat agree. But from a standpoint, there are people who really appreciate the PvP mechanics for themselves and don't want gear to be a factor.

On the other hand, the core drive of this MMO was that you built your character and progressed it to make it more powerful. Heck, in vanilla there were people who raided for the sole purpose of making a powerful character that could wreck the opposite faction.

Ideally I'd like to see a section of "fair" and "unfair" PvP co-exist. Somehow.

[Deleted]

Is the world fair? Anywhere?

So I believe raiding would be fair too, just give ppl the same ILVL to raid, no more work to get items.

The real world isn't fair.... that is the biggest reason why every fictional world should be better, because there are the tools to make it better than reality.
So please stop this nonsense. I could even ask for WoW be more like the real world: people play more also pay more for the hour paid.... hey in the end, world is not fair.

[Deleted]

So you're mad that pvp is less gear reliant and more skill reliant? Am I reading that correctly

Class reliant

Ftfy /10char

[bloodmoth13]

The more you play the better your skill will get, when your friend joins in you will still stomp his ass, unless you actually suck at this game and he is better.

I love this new system, all those grind for a week straight, outgear everyone and stomp the newcomer pricks have had their handicaps removed and now are playing on an even playing field, shitting on those players is probably the sweetest thing blizz has ever done, fuck them!

Now PVP will be about skill not gear, which is what PVP should always be about!