wealth inequality

[Machismo]

We all give money "against our will" to the nation as a whole, so I guess we're all "oppressed" if you're going down that road.

Again, that's how a society works.



Meanwhile, the figures that you're claiming are "oppressed" are going through the same channels and using the same tactics to ensure that money is being taken from you and given to them, or that the rules are set up such that they have advantages over you.

Again, there's this whole set of propaganda aimed at coaxing you into believing that this is "normal" and "free market" but that any changes are somehow "socialism" or "oppression". The way you frame it, we'd all be back working in coal mines for little pay and no protections until we just can't physically work anymore, and then call that "progress".

You are choosing to do the exact same thing as the corporatists, which means you have no cause to complain when they do it.

Of course, this is not about taxation, this is about forcing a company to give its money to its employees all against their will. How would you like it if the corporations turned to the government, and had the government demand that you buy a product from a company at a higher price? How pissed off would you be?

[Endus]

The CEOs are employees also. Let that sink in. The CEOs are employees also. The CEO has played the labor market perfectly, getting offered the highest paying job.

Go on, cite where I said that CEOs didn't deserve fair compensation.

I just stated they weren't the sole contributors to a company's economic success.

[Machismo]

And as long as workers can't choose not to participate in that market, what you're talking about is fantasy, not reality. This is why we have minimum wages; because otherwise, employers would pay so little that working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week would barely cover your own survival, requiring your children to work themselves if they want to eat. We know this, because that's what actually happened.



That's not an argument. That's a lie. Money you owe in taxes is not "your money". That belongs to and was earned by the government.



Yes, slaveholding was the collective will of what, at the time, were legally defined as "people" (specifically, white dudes). No, that doesn't justify it, but what you're talking about is instituting exactly that kind of inequitable oligarchy, again.

Rich people aren't "oppressed". They're the most advantaged group in society. And letting that minority set the rules is just an attempt to create a new aristocracy, and move back to that kind of oligarchy, away from democracy.

One again, we are talking about WAGES. You want to take the company's money, and give more to the employees. That's not a tax, that is the government stepping into the middle of a voluntary agreement, and deciding that they want to change it. For all your complaints about an inequitable oligarchy, that is exactly what you are trying to force onto others. The only difference, is who is in control. What you advocate is no different than a corporation convincing the government that you had to may more for a product, even if you don't even want it.

[Tijuana]

And as long as workers can't choose not to participate in that market, what you're talking about is fantasy, not reality. This is why we have minimum wages; because otherwise, employers would pay so little that working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week would barely cover your own survival, requiring your children to work themselves if they want to eat. We know this, because that's what actually happened.



That's not an argument. That's a lie. Money you owe in taxes is not "your money". That belongs to and was earned by the government.



Yes, slaveholding was the collective will of what, at the time, were legally defined as "people" (specifically, white dudes). No, that doesn't justify it, but what you're talking about is instituting exactly that kind of inequitable oligarchy, again.

Rich people aren't "oppressed". They're the most advantaged group in society. And letting that minority set the rules is just an attempt to create a new aristocracy, and move back to that kind of oligarchy, away from democracy.

How can you say it's fantasy? Sure, workers must compete in the labor market, they can't choose to just not eat. But they don't have to accept the first offer. Look, I must buy food to live, but I still have choice in what I select. The same is true of the worker and which job he chooses to work.

Please, just tell me what has changed about employers in the past ~3,000 years. They have ALWAYS wanted to pay the least. But they couldn't get away with it, because those pesky other employers would hire away their workers for more money. Now, if there is imbalance in the number or workers vs business owners, then perhaps that is worth exploring.

But this notion that all of a sudden, sometime in the 1980s, previously benevolent employers just got mean...yeah that is the real fantasy.

[Machismo]

You may as well be trying to argue that it was the plantation owners in the slaveowning South who were the REAL oppressed class, because they had to pay taxes and their slaves didn't.

It's an argument so ridiculous it practically satirizes itself.

You are the one who thinks you should get involved in a voluntary agreement between two willing entities. Both sides agreed to it, yet you are the one who seems unhappy. You are so outraged, that you want to use the government to fix the "wrong" that isn't actually going on.

[RickJamesLich]

Rich people aren't "oppressed". They're the most advantaged group in society. And letting that minority set the rules is just an attempt to create a new aristocracy, and move back to that kind of oligarchy, away from democracy.

Endus have you ever considered that rich people generally worked a lot harder to get what they've earned in comparison to the middle or lower class? Or do you think this type of stuff doesn't really happen? Or do you think all people that become rich just inherited the money?

[Cthulhu 2020]

but but im liberal and i want it all! and i want it now!

work for it you say?

fuck u

So you support the wealthy using government and force of law to artificially prop up their wealth, make them earn more than they would have without those laws, and even bail them out with taxpayer dollars when they fail?

Because everyone in the wealthiest tiers has benefited from government favor and cronyism to bolster their fortunes. Every time some conservative demands we stop being jealous of the wealthy, they're defending crony capitalism, which prevents fair competition and stops hard working people from earning what they deserve, in favor of lop sided market favor created by cronyism.

So basically you support a ruling elite class who writes laws that benefit their own fortunes at the expense of everyone else earning fair wage.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Endus have you ever considered that rich people generally worked a lot harder to get what they've earned in comparison to the middle or lower class? Or do you think this type of stuff doesn't really happen? Or do you think all people that become rich just inherited the money?

Have you ever considered that they've benefited massively from crony capitalism, and that Republicans continue to defend a government that makes laws that prop up the wealthy instead of letting real market factors determine who earns money and who doesn't?

[Machismo]

Sure, it's simply lobbying for one's own interests. I don't necessarily fault the corporations for doing it, but I don't understand why it's so abhorrent to some of you that regular citizens dare to do so.



Pretty much all forms of labor laws, safety regulations, environmental regulations, and laws in general are imposed "against their will". Otherwise they'd all just have 9 year old kids working for a quarter a day in toxic conditions and dumping everything they can find into the water supply.

(And like Endus said, we know because this is exactly what did happen to force the creation of the worker protections that we DO have so far.)

Do you think a company should be able to use the government to force you to buy a product at an even higher price, even if you don't want their product?

That is what you are doing when you demand that a company pay higher wages, even after the company and employee agreed to a wage.

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Have you ever considered that they've benefited massively from crony capitalism, and that Republicans continue to defend a government that makes laws that prop up the wealthy instead of letting real market factors determine who earns money and who doesn't?

Pushing up an unnecessary minimum wage is "crony" capitalism. If you don't like it when corporations do it, then you shouldn't practice the same tactics. Your last statement was an argument AGAINST the minimum wage. Let the "real market factors determine who earns money and who doesn't"

[Tijuana]

So you support the wealthy using government and force of law to artificially prop up their wealth, make them earn more than they would have without those laws, and even bail them out with taxpayer dollars when they fail?

Because everyone in the wealthiest tiers has benefited from government favor and cronyism to bolster their fortunes. Every time some conservative demands we stop being jealous of the wealthy, they're defending crony capitalism, which prevents fair competition and stops hard working people from earning what they deserve, in favor of lop sided market favor created by cronyism.

So basically you support a ruling elite class who writes laws that benefit their own fortunes at the expense of everyone else earning fair wage.

Uh, it's conservatives that detest crony capitalism, not liberals. Conservatives believe in weak government, precisely because of things like crony capitalism.

[A dot Ham]

keep hearing about this... yet rockefeller was worth approx 10x what bill gates is worth in today's money.

The big difference is the cost of living.

The issue has always surrounded the American dream. A house for your family and 2 kids.

Even though his wealth is/was considerably more than anyone currently living. A factory workers job, could support a family of 4, and one parent could stay home (a home you owned).

Today with both parents educated and working, people can't afford to own in some places. There is something wrong with that picture.

[Machismo]

It's not even remotely the same concept. You seem to have completely convinced yourself that this apple is indeed an orange, though, so I don't know what else to tell you.

It is the same concept. You have a voluntary agreement between two willing entities, but someone on the outside is not happy with it. They decide that they want to give one side more, so they use the government to take more money from one, and give it to the other.

[Sorrior]

Endus have you ever considered that rich people generally worked a lot harder to get what they've earned in comparison to the middle or lower class? Or do you think this type of stuff doesn't really happen? Or do you think all people that become rich just inherited the money?

Trump did not work he inherited many wealthy people were born into it

[RickJamesLich]

Have you ever considered that they've benefited massively from crony capitalism, and that Republicans continue to defend a government that makes laws that prop up the wealthy instead of letting real market factors determine who earns money and who doesn't?

Batman, you are filled with blind rage towards wealthy people much in the same way that say the KKK has an irrational hatred of black people.

Things like working 7 days a week, not taking vacations, working instead of enjoying hobbies, avoiding pitfalls, taking massive risks, all qualities that people employ to become rich. I dunno, maybe if you stopped demonizing the wealthy, and really thought about what it takes for many of them to get to the top, you may have a new found respect for them?

[Machismo]

Trump did not work he inherited many wealthy people were born into it

Good for them. Should they be punished for being lucky?

[Tijuana]

It's not even remotely the same concept. You seem to have completely convinced yourself that this apple is indeed an orange, though, so I don't know what else to tell you.

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Heh, anyone - of any party - that is greedy and can benefit from it supports crony capitalism.

To think that it's a "conservative" or "liberal" thing is naivete of the highest caliber.

I get you...kind of. However, its actually Libertarians that detest cronyism the most, and only one side currently gives voice to Libertarian-ism in any way.

[Dezerte]

Do you think a company should be able to use the government to force you to buy a product at an even higher price, even if you don't want their product?

That is what you are doing when you demand that a company pay higher wages, even after the company and employee agreed to a wage.

The business is free to leave the country, the minimum wage law does not force the business to pay it? The buyer is free to buy another product?

Pushing up an unnecessary minimum wage is crony capitalism. If you don't like it when corporations do it, then you shouldn't practice the same tactics.

Isn't the point they are making that because of "crony capitalism" you also require a minimum wage-law to offset the "unbalance"?

[RickJamesLich]

Trump did not work he inherited many wealthy people were born into it

Trump didn't have to take massive risks with the money he had? The fact that Trump has marketed himself into a Presidential candidate in little to no time at all shows the man has a level of intelligence and work ethic that is far beyond the average person. Do you feel it's unfair that intelligent people are more successful than less intelligent people?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Uh, it's conservatives that detest crony capitalism, not liberals. Conservatives believe in weak government, precisely because of things like crony capitalism.

Not sure why you guys keep defending the ultra wealthy that use cronyism. Donald Dump has been one of the biggest benefactors of cronyism. His fortune is practically built on it.

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Pushing up an unnecessary minimum wage is "crony" capitalism. If you don't like it when corporations do it, then you shouldn't practice the same tactics. Your last statement was an argument AGAINST the minimum wage. Let the "real market factors determine who earns money and who doesn't"

Collective bargaining isn't cronyism, sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism.

[Machismo]

The business is free to leave the country, the minimum wage law does not force the business to pay it? The buyer is free to buy another product?



Isn't the point they are making that because of "crony capitalism" you also require a minimum wage-law to offset the "unbalance"?

If you don't like it, you can leave... is the trademark expression of someone who wants to justify oppressing others. "If gay people in Alabama want to get married, they can move to California."

Then why not get rid of the laws that allowed for the crony capitalism, instead of trying to fix it with more burdensome legislation? Adding shitty legislation on top of shitty legislation seems like a really poor way to solve a problem.

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Not sure why you guys keep defending the ultra wealthy that use cronyism. Donald Dump has been one of the biggest benefactors of cronyism. His fortune is practically built on it.

- - - Updated - - -



Collective bargaining isn't cronyism, sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

I never said it was. Using the government to do your bargaining for you is crony capitalism. Pushing for an increased minimum wage via the government, instead of through collective bargaining, is the same as what the corporatists have been doing. Collective bargaining goes out the window when one side uses the government (and the guns/force it brings to the table).