Judenstaat, an alternate history of Israel

[Independent voter]

Besides Judenstaat there's a book about a Jewish state in Alaska.

I think the Germans could've been talked into giving up some land for a Jewish state at the end of the war. It could've been presented to Germans as the right thing to do, everyone could see the Jews needed their own state so they could defend themselves. It would've been a good thing for the Germans to help out.

And we wouldn't have all that Muslim anger about the Palestinians today.

[Slant]

Germany is all back together today right? What parts are missing?

A lot of parts:

Pre-War:



- - - Updated - - -

Just because we got dragged into a world war and got blamed for it alone and then out of revenge started one on our own?

Germany is the victim after all, you other nations fucked up hard with your treaty of versailles.

We should get our pre ww1 borders back as a reparation for the biggest shame of history that is the treaty of versailles.

Whoa, careful there, dude... that's straight out of Hitler's book of cool arguments to start a nationalistic movement. You do not ever whinge about Versailles. It was a bad deal, shit happens. It's done and over with. It wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last bad deal made in international politics. We aren't victims anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

The light treatment that post-war Germany received was certainly a pragmatic move, but damn if it doesn't make for a fundamentally fucked up historical narrative. To fast forward 70 years and see Germany as the predominant economic and political power in Europe while all of the countries where the Nazis did the most damage are still languishing in poverty just feels wrong on so many levels. And sure, not all of the responsibility for that can be put on meddling by the superpowers and the individual countries deserve credit and blame where due, but man, something just doesn't seem right with how it all turned out. Could make a similar case with Japan as well.

Attributing Germany's current success to "light treatment" post WW2 is neglecting history and misjudging Germany as a whole. The light treatment helped jump start the economy, but here's a couple things that you had no influence about: Germany has/had natural resources in abundance, specifically coal and steel. Germany has a large working force with good working ethics and the intelligence to set them to work properly, with the scientific and engineering background to make their work even more efficient. Germany is the centre of Europe, if nothing else, that alone means success is Germany's destiny. Everything going from west to east and north to south has to pass through us. Naturally, we're a major trade hub. It's not arrogance when I say Germany is - quite literally - the centre beating heart of Europe. That's just geography and has nothing to do with "light treatment".

Germany, once united after 1871/72, was always destined to compete for the top spot in Europe. It was bound to happen and it'll happen every single time, simply because of the culture, ethics and geography (discounting the resources that aren't as relevant anymore). It may not seem right, but this is how the cookie crumbles. And everyone else better look to themselves if they want to improve their situation.

[lonely zergling]

Whoa, careful there, dude... that's straight out of Hitler's book of cool arguments to start a nationalistic movement. You do not ever whinge about Versailles. It was a bad deal, shit happens. It's done and over with. It wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last bad deal made in international politics. We aren't victims anymore.

Any other country would probably have reacted in a similar way if they had faced this big inequality and had the resources to do it. But we arent victims anymore now you are right, justice was served after all, and we wont have big world wars anymore now because of this big mistake, good for everyone heh? .

[Slant]

Any other country would probably have reacted in a similar way if they had faced this big inequality and had the resources to do it. But we arent victims anymore now you are right, justice was served after all, and we wont have big world wars anymore now, good for everyone heh? .

In hindsight, I have to say it couldn't have turned out better for Europe. We share our success, everyone can travel anywhere, we all actually like each other (to a degree). Another internal war in Western Europe seems quite inconceivable at this point. Of all the times in the past 2000 years in Europe, I'd choose our time every time.

Versailles was exceptionally stupid, but they learned from it. It was a lesson that was learned by everyone, you can't treat a country like a criminal offender. You kinda have to treat a country more like a relative with a really bad and destructive habit. Help them overcome it instead of punishing them with a bludgeon.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure I understand.

There's a reason the Jewish state is in Israel and not in Germany, or Alaska. The same reason why Christians and Muslims also look at that area with interest.

[Slant]

I'm not sure I understand.

There's a reason the Jewish state is in Israel and not in Germany, or Alaska. The same reason why Christians and Muslims also look at that area with interest.

Pfft, reason... it has no place in a thread like this. :P

[lonely zergling]

I know that the chinese people rebuild a whole city from austria including the landscape (mountains + lake), why dont we hire them to rebuild the important places of the jewish people somewhere else :P? This way you could move the state!

[Ravenblade]

Besides Judenstaat there's a book about a Jewish state in Alaska.

I think the Germans could've been talked into giving up some land for a Jewish state at the end of the war. It could've been presented to Germans as the right thing to do, everyone could see the Jews needed their own state so they could defend themselves. It would've been a good thing for the Germans to help out.

And we wouldn't have all that Muslim anger about the Palestinians today.

1.) Germans were not talked into, they were simply told as unconditional surrender means exactly that: Germany couldn't make any conditions which is why they had to give up territory in first place and never got it back. Obviously Allies did not consider giving Jews their own territory within Germany to be an idea at all since there was no plan mentioning it all. There were hundreds of plans for sure some even have been tried like giving them their own Soviet oblast but since Stalin targeted Jews too in the end it failed utterly.

2.) Herzl's Jewish state explicitly referred to Israel, not to Saxony or anywhere else in Germany. It's been considered Jewish heartland ever since despite many ideas. For what it's worth: After the dissolution of the Soviet Union a lot Jews left either for Israel or Germany.

3.) The idea of a Jewish state is far older than WW2. There were several aliyahs before it already, either due to pogroms or due to campaigns. WW2 just started the 5th one btw. Herzl even tried to gain support from the Ottomans and from Emperor Wilhelm II. Zionists volunteers assisted Britain in conquering Palestine and a lot Jewish migrants already moved their before WW2. The events of WW2 accelerated the plans for the creation of the state of Israel in a rather uncomfortable manner however since it's been on the table for a long time already whether it would have been right after WW2 or a few years later didn't matter. The one thing that could have been different was that Israel might have ended up as rogue state first but for political reasons been recognized sooner or later anyway. In the same way it could have been created legally but with far more refined details avoiding the Palestine-Jewish conflict which started to arise later on.

[Kaleredar]

Jewish people have historical roots in the Middle East thousands of years old as a distinct population.

While Jewish people certainly had historical roots in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, they were always a minority, and it really wouldn't have been fitting to carve out a chunk of Germany to accomodate a General Jewish state, regardless of the atrocities the Germans pulled.

[Slant]

Jewish people have historical roots in the Middle East thousands of years old as a distinct population.

While Jewish people certainly had historical roots in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, they were always a minority, and it really wouldn't have been fitting to carve out a chunk of Germany to accomodate a General Jewish state, regardless of the atrocities the Germans pulled.

Meeeeh, they never had a root in Germany. They took roots in Germany because they were driven out of the Middle East. That's what the diaspora is all about, it literally means expulsion, if I recall correctly.

[I Push Buttons]

I think we should carve out a place in the middle of the Southern US and make that Israel. Then, maybe, there could be a small glimmer of civilization down there.

[Machismo]

they dont want some land they have no connection too. they wanted their ancestral homeland. we were strong enough to give it to them and they are strong enough to hold it. deal with it, its reality.

oh and i prefer mexico, sheldons plan sounded nice.

It wasn't their land, it belonged to someone else, and had for centuries. The Jews in Germany and Europe had no real claim over that land. Putting Israel on the some of the most holy land on the planet (for 3 religions), was a terrible idea. How would you like it, if someone came to your house, put a gun in your face, kicked you out, and said the possible descendants of an ancient people deserved it more than you did? I'm sure you'd be fine with it... deal with it, it's reality.

[muto]

Like already stated a thousand times. Jerusalem is the Holy Land. Germany wouldn't be the same.

[Fuiking]

I don't believe it's "all" of Germany. Israel is a pretty small country after all.

And that would have fired off a nasty demand from the Dutch.

Bakker Schut was the president of the National service for the National Plan, secretary of the Dutch Committee for Territorial Expansion, and a member of the State Commission for the Study of the Annexation Question and of the Study Group Territorial Expansion. In his expansion plan, he suggested to annex a large part of northwestern Germany. All the land west of the line Wilhelmshaven-Osnabrück-Hamm-Wesel would be added to the Netherlands, as well as the land east of Limburg, where the border followed the Rhine until close to Cologne, then diverging towards Aachen in the west. In this A Variation of the plan, among others the large cities of Aachen, Cologne, Münster, Oldenburg and Osnabrück were annexed. Bakker Schut called this the Weser border and ended his writings with the slogan Nederland's grens kome aan de Wezer (The border of the Netherlands be at the Weser). In a smaller plan B, the west-Rhineland cities Cologne, Mönchengladbach and Neuss were not annexed. In a third option, plan C, the proposed annexation was much smaller. It included an area west of Varel, the entire Emsland, and the area around Wesel until near the Duchy of Cleves.


That plan even in its weak version was too large, Cleves/Berg and Bentheim would have been enough

[Shadowferal]

It could've been done in 1946. There was a huge amount of guilt.

The Germans weren't a consideration, at all.

The Jews wanted the land of Israel because it was their ancestral homeland, not just simply in order to have a land of their own.

Correction, the Jews wanted "Israel" because they believed it was their homeland.

[Kaleredar]

Meeeeh, they never had a root in Germany. They took roots in Germany because they were driven out of the Middle East. That's what the diaspora is all about, it literally means expulsion, if I recall correctly.

Well that's what I meant by "roots;" several generations of Jews had lived there. But not a sizable historic population.

[Slant]

Well that's what I meant by "roots;" several generations of Jews had lived there. But not a sizable historic population.

Well, that is a given, but if you're talking about roots, the original roots are in the ME and they apparently pull stronger than whatever was done in Europe. Look at their diaspora, they were literally despised and discriminated against everywhere on the continent, culminating in actual genocide in the end. If you actually think about their European history, it's not even a theoretical question of them not wanting to settle in Europe. Even if you give them land on their own. Some might say it's even a bit insulting to just suggest that. As if you could somehow pay their pain and suffering off with land.