Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[Kissare]

Guys, what whould be better for M+/Raid [Choker of Barbed Reins 940] or [Chain of the Unmaker 965] ?

[Invisibelf]

If you're pulling large groups choker can do significant damage if you're tanking. If you're doing havoc/dps then you may as well go with Chain I think.

[Nahela]

For M+ I'd at least try the Choker, but it won't do any significant damage in raids, better off going with the higher ilvl for more stats.

[Munkky]

I was slightly off in my numbers. I had bad math. After looking it back over the averages are slightly increased, none the less, its not "insanely powerful" for raiding. "Ideally" yes you would use it, but its not worth dropping high amounts of ilvl, lower than t20 2pc was even.

[Nahela]

Unless you're rolling ridiculous TF luck exclusively on offset pieces, there should be no major ilvl dropping involved given that it's the current tier.

Are you using purely theoretical data, or experiential data? I really just don't agree with your numbers on this at all, but I'd love to see where it's coming from to get a better perspective to understand it. From my experience I'm seeing at least a solid minute taken off of every Meta, an overall 33% CDR. That's an enormous benefit to an extremely powerful CD. It seems absurd for the community to be recommending a conditional 5% parry increase (the 2pc) and then saying a ~33% CDR for our biggest defensive CD is 'not worth it'.

[Veiled Shadow]

It seems absurd for the community to be recommending a conditional 5% parry increase (the 2pc) and then saying a ~33% CDR for our biggest defensive CD is 'not worth it'.

To be fair though, the 2pc gives raw non-DR parry (which has increasing returns) when its value due to these increasing returns is highest - during DS uptime. So it can amount to around 10% reduction in parry-able damage which is nothing to scoff at.

Also, generally meta is used at specific points and simply getting CDR on that need not have any impact depending on fight mechanics. For instance if you have burst occurring every minute, then the 4pc only becomes a gain on fights of even minute length assuming 1 minute CDR. On the flip side though, you could also argue that since you don't always know fight lengths ahead of time on progress, it's better to always wear the set to be safe since you're not usually giving up much for that anyways.
I don't have the bonus so I didn't look into it myself but that's worth taking into consideration.

[Nahela]

I'm not saying the 2pc isn't valuable, it is. I'm just saying that I feel the 4pc is even more valuable beyond that.

Again, it comes down to this all being theoretical; both with no experiential data nor the math used being shown. The end result is what I feel is a very, very poor recommendation given my own experience with the set. It's not even a situation where 'sometimes' you get good CDR on it. You nearly always do and sometimes you get amazing CDR on it (see: 3 Metas in < 4 minutes). I'm ignoring M+ for the sake of this recommendation, though it is worth noting that it provides a comical amount of CDR there.

For the sake of comparison, as I've mentioned a couple times, this is also by the same token people are dismissing Riftworld Codex on purely (bad) theoretical data, when it's possibly one of, if not the, best damage smoothing tools in the raid. It's going to take another reset or two for me to get more complete personal data on it, but as of right now it accounts for ~16% of my self-healing on average. Which, needless to say, is a very high number for a single trinket. The downside is that Crit isn't the greatest stat, but it's a little better this tier with the 4pc parry synergy. Worth more if you're at particularly low levels of Parry. There's also a negligible damage value here, but maybe to the tune of 2-3%. Worth more in M+, of course.

It just seems to me that we should be doing a better job informing others and not hanging on to questionable and purely theoretical data for this long.

[Stacie]

Updated thread title, removed old 7.2.5 from sticky until updated to avoid confusion.

[Delimit]

It seems absurd for the community to be recommending a conditional 5% parry increase (the 2pc).........I'm not saying the 2pc isn't valuable, it is. I'm just saying that I feel the 4pc is even more valuable beyond that

its not worth dropping high amounts of ilvl, lower than t20 2pc was even

Nobody, anywhere that I've seen is saying the 2pc is better than the 4pc. 2pc T20 isn't the same thing as 2pc T21.

For the sake of comparison, as I've mentioned a couple times, this is also by the same token people are dismissing Riftworld Codex on purely (bad) theoretical data, when it's possibly one of, if not the, best damage smoothing tools in the raid.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that it's "bad" because of some imagined "theory". It's mediocre, because it's mediocre. (better in M+/constant AOE) Best damage smoothing tool in the raid, what? You're wildly overselling this thing based on your own "theory" that is missing all kinds of factors. It has shit stats, it sucks at "smoothing" since it's not always up. When it is up, it's overhealing half the time, and when it's not..it's minor values that your healers would have likely healed up passively anyway so you're just pushing more of their heals into overhealing. Hell, Darkmoon is still going to give you a "smoother" reduction on anything physical, and has better stats to boot. Nevermind that people are claiming that it was nerfed to not be as silly on trash (the only time that it was actually "good")

[Nahela]

It's literally unlisted on the tanking guides. When it is mentioned, it's frequently referred with PTR-based data.
Saying 'it would be healed anyway' is a ridiculous argument. You could say the same about any single small to moderate healing effect in that case.

Have you used it? I provided numbers. Who cares how much extra it's overhealing if it's also providing the amount of effective healing that it currently does?

I see no evidence anywhere that it was 'nerfed', it was actually dramatically buffed since PTR.

[Delimit]

Why do you keep referring to PTR, when nobody is talking about PTR except for you? I'm talking about live, not old PTR data. People were questioning a nerf since yesterday.

Yes, I have used it. It isn't a ridiculous argument, it's not a constant steady heal, IE Frailty/Leech, or a long term controllable shield like Barrier. Trying to claim that it's "the best damage smoothing tool in raid", is more than a little exaggerated.



100% tanking uptime, not even in the ballpark of being "the best damage smoothing tool in raid". If you're trying to make the claim that something is the best thing since sliced bread, you probably should be caring about opportunity cost, how/when healing is applied, overhealing, etc. HPS numbers are not the entire measuring stick that is used to determine if something is worthwhile or not. (ie, Barrier and Prydaz are seldom used)

[Nahela]

Prydaz is seldom used? What? That's just patently false. Obviously if you're going by DPS rankings it's not going to be present there, but we're talking about survivability.

Even with the linked graph you're showing a singular trinket that's providing significant uptime on strong self-sustain. It does a ton of work for a single item slot. Sorry, I just don't agree with you here. Which is fine, but I also still completely disagree with leaving it entirely off all tanking information. Again, referencing PTR as that was the initial reason it was left off trinket lists, as the procrate was around 1/3 of what it is currently on Live.

[MookieRah]

So I started stacking crit for havoc as well as more vengeance dps, and I sit at 21-22% parry before ds. The first three seconds of ds I have 50+% parry. On fights like dogs, high command, hazebel in which you are taking hits you get a lot of mileage out of 4pc. I’d have to look at logs but I think I got upwards of two extra metas in those fights. Not only is that a defense boost but also it is a dps boost due to practically having unlimited pain to work with.

[Uggrukor]

Would really appreciate some help from you guys.. having issues with my V DH currently.

I am questing a lot right now for WQs on Argus and other zones. I took Spirit Bomb a few days ago and fell in love with it, had just been using Fel Dev for the longest time after coming back a week or two ago, it felt time I should take the recommendations to heart from this thread. However the current issue I have is I am unable to about 50-70% of the time to accumulate Soul Fragments. I am spamming Shear and Fracture, which from my understanding is ONLY supposed to shatter them, not suck them in. From my understanding, the only things I have which can suck them in is Soul Cleave and Spirit Bomb, as well as walking near them.

Why are souls from 15-20 yards or even farther being sucked in when I am only using Shear/Fracture. Am I missing something? I'm not even moving, standing still and I see fragments go out, and come right back in. My SF tracker is literally having nightmares trying to figure out whats going on.

Any help would be great, it makes Spirit Bomb unplayable.

[Yxiomel]

If you have 5 or more fragments on the field, creating more causes older ones to automatically fly to you to be used.
Alas, the spirit counter is pretty unresponsive, so you may not realise that you have 5 out already.

[Nahela]

The issue is the tracking on the buff/base UI is just inherently delayed. Munkky posted a WA a little while back for tracking it via combat log events that's significantly more responsive. I have a modified version of it that I've been using, I'll post a link next time I'm at my PC if I can remember.

[Kvistor]

that would be great m8

[DeuZWw]

*jumpin in the 4pcs discussion even tho i'm a scrub*

For me, the best thing about 4pcs, is that with it, somehow it seems to align much better with my AHR CDs most of the time.
however, i noticed a drop in my survivability when i lost my t20 2pcs for t21 4pcs(Sadly, i dropped a 975ilvl chest, and i'm not feeling like i should drop 40 ilvls for 2pcs, sadfrog.jpg)

5% DR Fulltime is too strong. Having less gap between Metamorphosis is great, but from a survivalistic PoV, you will be saving your Meta for "ohshit"-moments that may or may not happen during the fight, and even if they do they may just happens once or twice. Making the CD Reduction quite useless unless you are using it on cooldown and not saving it for when you will really need.
And if you are using it on cooldown, i assume you are going for extra DPS.


tl;dr: T21 4pcs isn't bad, but T20 2pcs is too strong, which is funny because the t20 4pcs is garbage.

Also, i feel like a dejavu about this same discussion but with KJ Trinket that did basically the same as current 4pcs.

[Tech614]

t20 2 piece is not really viable unless you get lottery luck on 2 TF pieces.

The 5% DR is easily out done by pure ilvl gain. Depending on your DS up time and % of bosses damage that is parryable t21 2 pc is also very comparable to it from a pure DR stand point.

t20 2 piece wasn't some amazing bonus by any means. It was 5% DR... which isn't useless but not something anyone should be caring about at this point.

[Veiled Shadow]

however, i noticed a drop in my survivability when i lost my t20 2pcs for t21 4pcs(Sadly, i dropped a 975ilvl chest, and i'm not feeling like i should drop 40 ilvls for 2pcs, sadfrog.jpg)

5% DR Fulltime is too strong.

tl;dr: T21 4pcs isn't bad, but T20 2pcs is too strong, which is funny because the t20 4pcs is garbage.

Yeah, no. The 'lost survivability' is either incorrect perception or poor play on your part. The T20 2pc is 5.25% effective health; 40 ilevels on a chestpiece gives around 3.5%ish just from the stamina alone, and around 0.5% from the armor. I also very much doubt the other T20 piece you are using is ilevel neutral, so you are most likely losing survivability equipping the old set, and that's not taking T21 into account at all.

Moreover, depending on damage patterns, being able to adjust your CD rotation is worth far more than 5% TDR (a CD up at an actually relevant moment being worth far more than 5.25% EH), and thus there are many cases in which I'd take T21 4pc over T20 2pc of equivalent ilevel.

Under no circumstances should you ever be dropping 40 ilevels on a chestpiece for the T20 2pc.