The NATO - Russia Thread

[May90]

It is reasonably proven that some actions were directed by US Embassy, and they put pressure to get "their guys" in power - as in protesters listened when US embassy called to free some buildings, and Yatsenyuk was installed as Prime Minister (exactly as it was in "fuck the EU" call). Then first foreign country both Yatsenyuk and Poroshenko visited was (no surprise) US.

Obviously they didn't control every step - they don't actually have analytical power for that even if that would be technically possible. Just like Russia didn't actually control every step in Crimea and Donbass.

Btw, now that Yatsenyuk is out of government... guess where he is spending his time? Why, again he appears in US...

Most of what you said is usual conspiracy stuff and attempts to explain events by making wishful connections. I mean, of course the first place they visited was the US. The US is the only country that can reasonably protect them from possible further Russian aggression. Where did you expect them to visit instead, Trinidad and Tobago?

[Ausr]

Having a dude from the legitimate government going to the parliament warming of USA sponsored coup / war, its kinda evidence dude or worth investigating.
Especially in conjunction with the FUCK THE EU phone call between the two Americans who were building the new Ukrainian government? and the Ukrainian General who confirms all of the above (cant find this video put its posted several times in the putin thread)?

Ohh i forgot, fluent American speaking soldiers with the Azov battalion sign saying "Outta of my face"

I mean you cant go more obvious that this.

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Laughed by who man? Do you think you are still in elementary and you speak like that or what?

I enjoy the fact you go after the "we laugh at you and your buddies poor excuse of proof" part and not actually providing physical proof. Stay classy, Ulmita.

[Shalcker]

Most of what you said is usual conspiracy stuff and attempts to explain events by making wishful connections.

Err, "most"? There are three things mentioned, each of them is 100% proven fact.
"Fuck the EU" call is conspiracy stuff?
Protesters being told by US embassy to clear some government buildings and complying is conspiracy stuff?
Yatsenyuk/Poroshenko first visit being to US is conspiracy stuff?

Are you actually aware what you're saying?

I mean, of course the first place they visited was the US. The US is the only country that can reasonably protect them from possible further Russian aggression. Where did you expect them to visit instead, Trinidad and Tobago?

So, you're actually agreeing with me?

It's kind of obvious they sought US support BEFORE they actually won, and they secured it - otherwise Yastenyuk would not happen to become "US guy" in "fuck the EU" call.

What do you think "US supported coups" are if not this? Do you think they have some kind of mind control rays, or drugged cookies to make stuff happen out of the blue? :/

That's exactly how it happens - they find some guy with a beef against current government and at least some kind of existing support, wait for situation to develop, and then throw their weight behind him as long as he pushes their interests.


...and by the logic the most obvious destination to deter Russian aggression would be Russia, actually. It's right across the border, it's technically "friendly", and while talks would be ongoing they could have delayed referendum too (as there were initially calls to make it happen at same time as presidential elections in May).

[zmp]

It is not the evidence at all, it is just two dudes saying something. That "phone call" was just hilarious, with the alleged people not sounding and talking the way they do in real life.

I mean, the theory that Russia staged that coup probably has more "evidence" than that. At least, Russia had an actual motive: justifying annexation of Crimea!

Love that typical conspiracy language.

[Ulmita]

I enjoy the fact you go after the "we laugh at you and your buddies poor excuse of proof" part and not actually providing physical proof. Stay classy, Ulmita.

Ausr conflicts like that don't start by themselves dude. Especially when you are talking about two brotherly nations like Russia and Ukraine. (its like Greeks and Cypriots). Someone put their hand to help this escalate at this point. Everything points to a foreign agency doing the dirty work. Anything from what i wrote, to the fact that the sniper killing civilians and cops was the same person using the same gun. I don't want to start blaming the Americans again, but rather do a general rant.

This planet we call home home is going from bad to worse each day. You got Ukraine, Syria, Libya a shiton of hot spots like south china sea, the Korean peninsula 80% of Africa etc. all ready to explode. And then you have countries trying to profit from such situations or countries that just don't care.

People in general dude (and especially the Americans) are are asleep. You have big corps ruling and choosing the fate of billions. People go to war, fight and die w/t anyone telling them why are they fighting in the first place. You have whole economies moving from profits that make from war or from a possibility of war. This shouldn't be like this.

However, there are some that have started to question, to wonder, to wake up. Why should we wage wars when there are so many other important things to fix in our country, in our society and in humanity as a whole? These people give me hope.

Humanity needs to unite under one flag in order to succeed as species. Collaboration, cooperation needs to take the place of xenophobia and isolationism. We have diseases killing millions upon millions every year and then you have countries designing the new weapon that will kill better and more efficiently completely ignoring the fact that millions are in the hospitals slowly die.

UN needs to become the authoritative power of this planet and UNSC it's arm. Continents must form unified countries / federations which eventually merge into one super state. The earth state. One language for efficiency, global freedom of movement and all the budget for war (some trillions) to go to hospital, research centers, universities and space agencies for exploration. The economical system needs to change too because its the source of the most problems. There needs to be a money cap for individual and businesses as rich get richer and poor are becoming poorer. Poverty and hunger needs to be fought in a global scale. We need to rethink our values.

At some point this planet won't be able to support us anymore. We will perish if we think that our main problem is where are borders are, or what religion the neighbor believes in etc

[Marcellus1986]

It was proven, but hey everyone saying so is just spouting russian propaganda!

Proven by whom? You, Ulmita, Shalcker, and Cybran are the usual brain drain zombies posting pro-Kremlin shill propaganda and posting conspiracy nonsense from sites like Zerohedge then when asked to provide proof from reputable sources you backpedal and give a vague "but but, it was proven!"

Get a grip.

[Shalcker]

Proven by whom? You, Ulmita, Shalcker, and Cybran are the usual brain drain zombies posting pro-Kremlin shill propaganda and posting conspiracy nonsense from sites like Zerohedge then when asked to provide proof from reputable sources you backpedal and give a vague "but but, it was proven!"

Get a grip.

Look, it doesn't matter what you think. No matter what is presented you would just say it's fake anyway, or means something completely innocent and harmless.

All that matters is that to Russia(ns) post-Maidan Ukraine is seen as US "proxy government" with no sovereignty that gets orders from Washington, and neither US nor Ukraine are doing anything that would dispel this assumption. And what US is doing to Ukraine through their "external control" is nothing short of disastrous - they cut all links that were holding Ukrainian economy afloat and give them nothing equivalent in return. And EU is setting Ukraine up as another source of cheap labour and nothing else.

And as such, as far as "stopping Ukrainian conflict" goes, we see it as ball in US court. Until US will tell Ukraine in no uncertain terms "go, fulfil Minsk", absolutely nothing will change. We've done all we're willing to do at this point, and Minsk is exactly what we want to see implemented.

And if you want to escalate instead you'll get escalation. There will be no "backing down".

[May90]

Err, "most"? There are three things mentioned, each of them is 100% proven fact.
"Fuck the EU" call is conspiracy stuff?
Protesters being told by US embassy to clear some government buildings and complying is conspiracy stuff?
Yatsenyuk/Poroshenko first visit being to US is conspiracy stuff?

Are you actually aware what you're saying?

You have three facts: an audio file posed as a specific call (of laughable quality, but whatever), protesters clearing government buildings, and visit of two heads of the state to the US. There are millions ways these facts can be explained, and I just explained the last one for you the way which has nothing to do with your conspiracy theory. The first one is most likely just scam (these people, if you've ever heard them talk in real life, talk nothing like this, both in terms of voice and the manner of speech). The second one is absolutely random and has nothing to do with anything.

But for conspiracy theorists, an evidence just needs to fit their theory, it doesn't need to prove it. A person suspiciously looked at me yesterday, my soup tasted funny today, and I have a meeting tomorrow switched from 4 PM to 5 PM - Illuminati confirmed!

[Ausr]

Ausr conflicts like that don't start by themselves dude. Especially when you are talking about two brotherly nations like Russia and Ukraine. (its like Greeks and Cypriots). Someone put their hand to help this escalate at this point. Everything points to a foreign agency doing the dirty work. Anything from what i wrote, to the fact that the sniper killing civilians and cops was the same person using the same gun. I don't want to start blaming the Americans again, but rather do a general rant.

This planet we call home home is going from bad to worse each day. You got Ukraine, Syria, Libya a shiton of hot spots like south china sea, the Korean peninsula 80% of Africa etc. all ready to explode. And then you have countries trying to profit from such situations or countries that just don't care.

People in general dude (and especially the Americans) are are asleep. You have big corps ruling and choosing the fate of billions. People go to war, fight and die w/t anyone telling them why are they fighting in the first place. You have whole economies moving from profits that make from war or from a possibility of war. This shouldn't be like this.

However, there are some that have started to question, to wonder, to wake up. Why should we wage wars when there are so many other important things to fix in our country, in our society and in humanity as a whole? These people give me hope.

Humanity needs to unite under one flag in order to succeed as species. Collaboration, cooperation needs to take the place of xenophobia and isolationism. We have diseases killing millions upon millions every year and then you have countries designing the new weapon that will kill better and more efficiently completely ignoring the fact that millions are in the hospitals slowly die.

UN needs to become the authoritative power of this planet and UNSC it's arm. Continents must form unified countries / federations which eventually merge into one super state. The earth state. One language for efficiency, global freedom of movement and all the budget for war (some trillions) to go to hospital, research centers, universities and space agencies for exploration. The economical system needs to change too because its the source of the most problems. There needs to be a money cap for individual and businesses as rich get richer and poor are becoming poorer. Poverty and hunger needs to be fought in a global scale. We need to rethink our values.

At some point this planet won't be able to support us anymore. We will perish if we think that our main problem is where are borders are, or what religion the neighbor believes in etc

Yes, the CIA planted it's nasty hands into a large nation and caused people who wanted more relations with the West to riot because their government wouldn't and didn't listen to them and wanted more relations with Russia. Yes, there were also two snipers on the hill the morning of JFKs assassination, GWB caused the Twin Towers to fall and we're secretly holding the Roswell incident as a weather balloon accident!

I read the rest of your idealistic rant. I'm glad you posted the history of the Federation from Star Trek. It made for a read that I genuinely laughed at for a minute before I laughed again at your conspiracy theory.

[Shalcker]

You have three facts: an audio file posed as a specific call (of laughable quality, but whatever), protesters clearing government buildings, and visit of two heads of the state to the US. There are millions ways these facts can be explained, and I just explained the last one for you the way which has nothing to do with your conspiracy theory. The first one is most likely just scam (these people, if you've ever heard them talk in real life, talk nothing like this, both in terms of voice and the manner of speech).

In un-official communications? You'd be surprised...
Obviously it's a lot more measured in interviews with journalists.

The second one is absolutely random and has nothing to do with anything.

It shows measure of control they possessed at the time.

But for conspiracy theorists, an evidence just needs to fit their theory, it doesn't need to prove it. A person suspiciously looked at me yesterday, my soup tasted funny today, and I have a meeting tomorrow switched from 4 PM to 5 PM - Illuminati confirmed!

There is a lot of evidence of US "external control" in Ukraine at this point (to the point of US officials flying to Kiev each time to push key measures through parliament), you'd have to be willfully blind to ignore it.

And there doesn't seem to be anything "sovereign" that Ukraine did that would run counter to US interests (other then things resulting from their unending corruption and crony-ism).

[May90]

In un-official communications? You'd be surprised...
Obviously it's a lot more measured in interviews with journalists.

It shows measure of control they possessed at the time.

There is a lot of evidence of US "external control" in Ukraine at this point (to the point of US officials flying to Kiev each time to push key measures through parliament), you'd have to be willfully blind to ignore it.

And there doesn't seem to be anything "sovereign" that Ukraine did that would run counter to US interests (other then things resulting from their unending corruption and crony-ism).

There is a lot of random facts, which you see as "evidence" because they don't directly contradict your convenient theory. This isn't how proof works though.

[Shalcker]

There is a lot of random facts, which you see as "evidence" because they don't directly contradict your convenient theory. This isn't how proof works though.

How would you falsify "external control" theory?
Assumption "they're doing it just because it's in their best interests!" does nothing to deny "external control" - especially when you "just happen" to share assumptions on what is best with US State Department. Results are plainly visible and could be predicted (and were predicted) long ago, and they are disastrous.

So it's either incompetence or malice from US side - they are the ones pushing all reforms and showing Ukrainians what is or isn't important. And neither incompetence nor malice are comforting thoughts.

[May90]

How would you falsify "external control" theory?
Assumption "they're doing it just because it's in their best interests!" does nothing to deny "external control" - especially when you "just happen" to share assumptions on what is best with US State Department. Results are plainly visible and could be predicted (and were predicted) long ago, and they are disastrous.

So it's either incompetence or malice from US side - they are the ones pushing all reforms and showing Ukrainians what is or isn't important. And neither incompetence nor malice are comforting thoughts.

There is a difference between "external control" and "external influence". "External control", at this point, is just a (lousy) conspiracy theory. While "external influence" is just a common sense. No one, seeing a revolution rising in a strategically important location, just sits on their hands and waits for the outcome: everyone interested will take certain steps to try to support the favorable outcome. And a country as influential as the US, and having special relations with Ukraine eastern neighbor, certainly wouldn't just sleep through the revolution. There is no evil plan, no hidden schemes, there is just usual political game. And it has nothing to do with "CIA coups" and other nonsense like that.

[Shalcker]

There is a difference between "external control" and "external influence".

And this difference is largely quantitative, not qualitative. With thresholds being quite different for different people and different situations.

People in power don't have "direct and full control" of their own countries in many cases (see Brexit), it's silly to expect that coups are walked through every step by hand and made stick to pre-approved plan. Noone, not even US has the kind of manpower needed for it.

"External control", at this point, is just a (lousy) conspiracy theory. While "external influence" is just a common sense. No one, seeing a revolution rising in a strategically important location, just sits on their hands and waits for the outcome: everyone interested will take certain steps to try to support the favorable outcome.

Actually a lot of time people do; it's only polite. If you value sovereignty, that is.
If it's "anything goes" then annexation is perfectly fine foreign influence tool too. It used forces friendly to Russia (Russian-backed) to get territory that was strategically important to Russia.

And US got the rest of Ukraine with US-backed forces. Win-win (as far as US and Russia are concerned).

And a country as influential as the US, and having special relations with Ukraine eastern neighbor, certainly wouldn't just sleep through the revolution. There is no evil plan, no hidden schemes, there is just usual political game. And it has nothing to do with "CIA coups" and other nonsense like that.

"Coup" is when you remove government in violation of laws of that country on changing of heads of state. That's definitely what happened in Ukraine.
And if it is done by faction that is supported by US then it is "US backed coup". That's just how language works. Pretty straightforward.

It is seriously silly to deny both "coup" and "US backed" parts.

[May90]

And this difference is largely quantitative, not qualitative.

It is qualitative, since we are talking about "Use the events for personal gain" vs "Initiate the events to use for personal gain".

"Anything goes" is not correct, rather "Anything not violating the international law goes". That's why, for example, NATO countries didn't face sanctions after invading Afghanistan, but Russia did after annexing Crimea: the former didn't violate the international law, while the latter did. If your country disagrees with the international law, then it is free to leave the UN and ignore its laws. And if it doesn't disagree with it, then it should follow the agreements it signed, or face consequences. You don't get to just say, "Well, others are bad, so let us be bad too", and avoid responsibilities.

[Shalcker]

It is qualitative, since we are talking about "Use the events for personal gain" vs "Initiate the events to use for personal gain".

"Anything goes" is not correct, rather "Anything not violating the international law goes". That's why, for example, NATO countries didn't face sanctions after invading Afghanistan, but Russia did after annexing Crimea: the former didn't violate the international law, while the latter did. If your country disagrees with the international law, then it is free to leave the UN and ignore its laws. And if it doesn't disagree with it, then it should follow the agreements it signed, or face consequences. You don't get to just say, "Well, others are bad, so let us be bad too", and avoid responsibilities.

You don't get to say "They are doing it on their own!" and avoid responsibilities for US-backed part either. You got it, you made them break ties with Russia, you should pay for them now :P

Because Russians are certainly not going to.

[May90]

You don't get to say "They are doing it on their own!" and avoid responsibilities for US-backed part either. You got it, you made them break ties with Russia, you should pay for them now :P

Because Russians are certainly not going to.

Yup. "He did better than me at building a business, so I nuked his office. Don't call me a criminal now!"

[Shalcker]

Yup. "He did better than me at building a business, so I nuked his office. Don't call me a criminal now!"

Being better at cheating and swindling population isn't necessarily good.

US certainly didn't "build a business" in Ukraine - unless you consider drip-feeding them IMF funds, handing them over US equipment that was getting rusty in storage, and setting up children of US officials as company directors there "good business".

[May90]

Being better at cheating and swindling population isn't necessarily good.

US certainly didn't "build a business" in Ukraine - unless you consider drip-feeding them IMF funds, handing them over US equipment that was getting rusty in storage, and setting up children of US officials as company directors there "good business".

This isn't how it works. There is presumption of innocence. Since the US haven't been caught on explicit violation of the international law in the Ukraine matters, your accusations are moot. While Russia has annexed Crimea, which was an outrageous violation of the law. You can build whatever conspiracy theories you want however, if they make you sleep better.

Not everything one can do that doesn't violate the law is morally good, but it is jurisdictionally fine. You don't get to say, "But they were immoral, so I gain the right to break the law now!". Or if you do, you get sanctioned. Enjoy!

[Ulmita]

Huge military drills involving the mobile nukes from Russia. Some 400 of them where involved for anti - sabotage drills.

Western media went into fear/war/panic/etc-mongering mode. Shit is hilarious.