European Superstate Incoming

[Kuntantee]

You can't completely exclude some sort of nationalism, patriotism in itself is just fine. It's the nationalistic bit that needs to be contained to a minimum. As for your earlier question about Prussians... I think they were professionals first, nationals second, yes. I haven't looked into that period, too much, but the original Prussia (not Hitler's version of it) was more about discipline and a properly run state rather than nationalistic tendencies. Those came later with Bismarck, really. late 19th century. Prussia is a thing of the late 18th/early 19th century.

That's right, you need to control the level but entire concept of military is based around a sort of idea that people need to protect, be it religion, the country or nation. That's pretty much how you send soldiers to death. As sad as it sounds, that's how world functions, unfortunately. And if you want a properly functioning military, you need at least patriotism in addition to professionalism.

As for Prussians, they were most impressive generals Europe (excluding Ottoman Empire) produced at that time. Prussian militarism is also similar to Turkish narrative of militarism, so that period of German history is interesting.

[Deleted]

The military won't have the authority to do anything within the EU. But hey, keep spinning those conspiracies. They sound funny...

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I'm right wing actually. But hey, go fuck your opinion.

Yeah right. Just wait for them "right-wing extremist groups that protest outside Bruxelle" and watch them deploy the army to cope with the situation. We don't need the EU army, we have NATO. The fact that the EU wants an army means they don't understand their role and democracy!

But hey I'm living in the cucked country that houses thousand of american foreign troops here, who housed CIA secret prisons and what not. My country gave up her suveranity long time ago, I just hope others won't!

[Slant]

That's right, you need to control the level but entire concept of military is based around a sort of idea that people need to protect, be it religion, the country or nation. That's pretty much how you send soldiers to death. As sad as it sounds, that's how world functions, unfortunately. And if you want a properly functioning military, you need at least patriotism in addition to professionalism.

As for Prussians, they were most impressive generals Europe (excluding Ottoman Empire) produced at that time. Prussian militarism is also similar to Turkish narrative of militarism, so that period of German history is interesting.

Patriotism? Yeah sure, it's a big win in soldiers' morale. Nationalism? That one is tricky, it leads to soldiers doing atrocious things, because they think they're better than the opponent. It leads to war crimes, such as rape torture etc. As I pointed out, you can't eradicate it completely, but it's good if it's kept at a minimum if possible.

Prussian military successes are largely due to the way Prussia worked. They put a lot of emphasize on efficiency and created one of the first properly working bureaucracies. Much of the values people attribute to Germany today are truly Prussian values. That part of German history is very interesting, it's also a first indicator of what went wrong before WW2. Keyword being obedience to authority and such, that's also a thing from the Prussians. Strict chain of command and adherence to bureaucratic standards.

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Yeah right. Just wait for them "right-wing extremist groups that protest outside Bruxelle" and watch them deploy the army to cope with the situation. We don't need the EU army, we have NATO. The fact that the EU wants an army means they don't understand their role and democracy!

But hey I'm living in the cucked country that houses thousand of american foreign troops here, who housed CIA secret prisons and what not. My country gave up her suveranity long time ago, I just hope others won't!

Dude, if Germany has any say in it, the military will have no power inside the EU at all. German military can't do jack shit in Germany. All they can do is help out in emergency situations (think floods etc.) because they have the big equipment (helicopters) that others don't have in such massive numbers. But they are not even allowed to walk around armed if they're not exercising.

You can rest assured that Germany won't tolerate a massive army buildup to suppress the domestic population. This is a really wild conspiracy theory.

[Macaquerie]

Yeah right. Just wait for them "right-wing extremist groups that protest outside Bruxelle" and watch them deploy the army to cope with the situation. We don't need the EU army, we have NATO. The fact that the EU wants an army means they don't understand their role and democracy!

But hey I'm living in the cucked country that houses thousand of american foreign troops here, who housed CIA secret prisons and what not. My country gave up her suveranity long time ago, I just hope others won't!

First your country was a Nazi puppet, then it was Soviet puppet. I'd say that nowadays you are less "cucked" than you have been in quite some time, be proud of that....

[Deianeira]

There are many problems that may arise out of cultural differences. Although I stated earlier that it's not the biggest problem and easiest one to tackle. You may want to read that post of mine.



NATO isn't tested in a true war, that's the first thing. Only Turkey is tested in NATO to fight for some other country, namely USA, in Korean War. While we, as a country, have a different take on wars and pacts, I doubt Brits would fight for Turkey. I mean, people start to freak out and asked to kick Turkey out of NATO because she was being aggressive against Russia. Now, you may say NATO is a defensive pact, you brought it up not me. However, I think it's a good example in my opinion. I think that's EXACTLY what you will get in a unified European army. USA army works because they think they are just one nation. In a European superstate, as long as you do not eliminate that "different nations" understanding, it will cause major issues mid-war. Sometimes, you need to order suicide missions in war, good luck convincing a British unit to make a suicide charge commanded by a German officer.

You may be clueless about wars, as your are in Central Europe, but we know how things work in here. You need to indoctrinate people to fight for unified Europe. Will you do that and most importantly can you achieve it?



This could be a problem for USA but that's not how things works there. They tax less and let capitalism shape the dynamics, hence creating poverty and huge wealth gaps. in Europe, however, taxes being high you will invest less in your infrastructure and use a good portion of that money to help others. It means amount of the service and quality of services will decrease in richer countries. Europe may have a bigger economy in future, but this is a huge investment with tons of unknowns. If superstate somehow fails on the way, you would end up with much poorer Europe in general, including Western Europe. And then you will have people like UKIP voters, who will just say "Fuck Romanians, I want my money to spent on Brits".

You think For instance in Sweden we have less infrastructure imptovments the countries that have lower taxes?

[Kuntantee]

You think For instance in Sweden we have less infrastructure imptovments the countries that have lower taxes?

What I mean is that taxes collected due to Germany may be spent on some poor Eastern European country depending on the system. The money that could otherwise spent in Germany to provide public services and to the quality of these services.

[Mayhem]

What I mean is that taxes collected due to Germany may be spent on some poor Eastern European country depending on the system. The money that could otherwise spent in Germany to provide public services and to the quality of these services.

You could always bind a certain percentage to be invested in the region where the taxes are collected. No one is saying the redistribution will have to happen over night.

What people seem to forget is, that unless we help make the poorer countries better, there will always be a need for people to leave those countries making it even harder to better their countries.

[Ghostpanther]

Hitler was a great man. Terrible but great.

As a manipulator, orator, inspiring and deceiving mass groups of people, yep. ( sort of reminds me of Obama. ) As a military strategist, he sucked big time. If he had let his generals run the Army, Europe may have looked a lot different now.

[thefkuffyrocker]

As a British person who voted to remain but also had a strong feeling the EU needed to change and was hoping a very close vote to remain would show there is strong feeling the EU needs to change and would open the door so the pro European politicians could see some of the real world rather than living in their own fantasy land, i have to say that most of what i have seen from the EU and from the remain camp in Britain in the last week has just shown that even with the tumultuous decision to actually leave it hasn't opened the eyes of the stubborn, arrogant and completely out of touch EU or British political establishment.

Instead of it being a wake up call to recognise that things need to change it is being seen as a rallying cry for more of what people are unhappy about with the EU and to make it harder to leave the EU. The EU wants to simply tighten it's grip on power. It has a vision and wants to steamroll it's way blindly toward that vision and doesn't care who it runs over on the way and even Britain voting to leave can't even make it pause for thought.

If the EU is so great people will want to stay. If you have to use control and fear to keep people in the relationship then there is something dramatically wrong with the relationship and it will eventually break up completely. Britains decision is the prime example of this as the remain camp used what was widely called "operation fear" as their main campaign strategy and the EU joined in with that also and Britain did what Britain does when you try to scare it. It stands up and fights.

There are plenty of good things about the EU and there were plenty of EU supporters out there, Eddie Izzard being a prime example, who should have been given a greater stage rather than people like David Cameron and George Osbourne who only had fear to peddle and obviously were only ever saying what they thought the public wanted to hear so we would vote the way they wanted.
David Cameron
Pre referendum...Britain is strong because the Conservative government made us that way.
Referendum campaign...Britain is weak and can't survive without the EU.
Post result...Britain is strong and we will survive.

George Osbourne
Pre referendum....Britain is strong because the Conservative government made us that way.
Referendum campaign...Britain is weak and can't survive without the EU, to the degree that if we vote to leave there will have to be an immediate emergency budget where taxes will go up and spending will go down.
Post result...Britain is strong and we will survive. There is also no need for an emergency budget.

I actually had to stop watching anything about the referendum about 2 weeks before the vote as they were spewing such obvious fear mongering rubbish they were making me want to vote to leave!
I thought a lot of the leave people were crazy cranks but i was starting to feel like voting leave because i was so disgusted by the remain campaign that i would actually feel worse endorsing their despicable tactics than i would by taking the giant leap of faith which could have huge ramification for our country and the world and voting to leave.
If they had treated the country like adults and had a real conversation with us rather than trying to treat us like children and not even having the sense to change that tactic when they were literally getting laughed off stage there is a great chance Britain would have voted to stay.

Many leave campaigners may have been cranks but at least they actually believed most of the rubbish they spewed.

Much like the British political establishment the EU is increasingly looking like an insecure abusive partner trying to keep all it's mistresses in line. Look at Greece which is the poster boy for EU abuse, where the EU has them exactly where they want them. They wanted Greece to stay because it would be bad for the EU if Greece left and instead of being a loving partner who offered to help they came along like some mafia boss who offered to help and we all know what happens when mafia bosses offer you help...they own your ass forever. Now Greece has to do whatever the EU says it has to do or it will be punished further.
Is that a great vision for the future?

I have increasingly seen the EU as a bad thing for the world.e.g. as already mentioned the Euro debacle and especially Greece but we also have the recent Ukraine debacle which was obviously going to happen as the EU tries to expand it's power into eastern Europe at the expense of Russia, especially with Putin in charge and this is another prime example of EU arrogance that they thought there would be no backlash from Russia.

The best decisions Britain have made toward the EU have always been to distance itself. Again the Euro being a prime example where we were told our economy would destroy itself if we didn't join the Euro yet we find Britain still having one of the strongest economies in Europe and in fact the world, and even through the previous world recession because we had our own currency.

Overall i feel Britain leaving the EU is a case of you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette and either way Britain wins because either the EU realises they need Britain as a trading partner more than we need it considering it imports a lot more to Britain than Britain exports to the EU which means Britain gets what it wants and which Britain voted for in the previous referendum on Europe which was to join the EEC which is a trading partner and the later concepts of further EU integration has never been given consent by the British people. Britain voted in the previous referendum to join an economic block, we did not vote to join a political establishment or a group whose greater goal is a European superstate.

Or, the EU takes the hard line arrogant stance which shows that Britain was right to leave the EU because everything we said was bad about it was true after all and the EU is so arrogant that it is will quite willingly cut off it's own nose to spite it's face rather than open it's eyes to reality and try to listen to the people which is part of the problem as it only has a quasi democracy which is even more complicated, confusing and multilayered that the US system and thus it is very hard for the average person to make their voice heard.

In many camps Britain is now seen as racist, anti Europe or xenophobic as we don't want to be part of the EU and Nigel Farrage is our poster boy for that impression but the reality is like many people in the EU we are simply unhappy with the way the EU works and this has been the only real chance for people to be listened to and even now the political institutions are trying not to listen.e.g. i am not a huge fan of Jeramy Corbyn but he was voted in, by the common people as the Labour leader and by a huge margin as he was someone seen as different and for once actually nice rather than someone different like Trump or Farrage, yet ever since he became leader of Labour, Labour politicians .i.e. the political establishment have been trying to undermine and get rid of him and are now using the EU vote as an excuse.

The people voted for Jeremy Corbyn yet the political establishment are doing everything they can to get rid of him and that is the prime example of what is wrong with British politics and the EU as a whole and this is why people voted to leave. The people think one thing and the political establishment think another thing and the political establishment repeatedly ignore what the people say.
Instead of listening to the people as is a democracy, politicians instead see themselves as our parents who think they always know best and if you think differently your told you are silly, stupid, racist, xenophobic, a bigot, ill educated, etc and that is seen then as an excuse to ignore those views and while some people are as labeled and people like Nigel Farrage do attract those type of people, they also attract normal people who are simply unhappy at not being listened to and people like Nigel Farrage voice the things people want to say but get ignored when they do say so.
A lot of people agree to varying degree with what are considered far right views and are happy when people bring up the subjects which are often just brushed away or feel they will be seen negatively if they talk about it. But most people do have legitimate concerns such as in Britain we have a massive shortage of housing, our NHS is straining, there aren't enough places in schools etc which are for example exacerbated by immigration as more people come to Britain each year than leave so more people means more strain on already stretched services.
Now most people don't want out with johnny foreigner, they simply want the issue recognised and to have it talked about and have something done about it. Thus if the normal political establishment ignores them yet far right people give them a voice then their only choice is suffer in silence or get in bed with the devil and hope to make a change.

We often compare Nigel Farrage to Hitler, not least because he has many similar attitudes but also because he is a voice for the disenfranchised and the reason people like Nigel Farrage and Hitler come to power is because the "normal" political establishment does not listen to the people of the country thus they end up being drawn into spheres of extremist views because that is the only outlet they have.
Most Germans voted for Hitler because he promised change, not because they were Nazi's. Most people in Britain voted to leave because we want change, even the most pro EU people can find plenty of improvements to the EU system, not because we are anti European.

So most Britains aren't xenophobic or anti European or racist, they just don't like the way the EU operates and even though i voted to remain i suspected in my heart that the only way to change anything was to leave and this is being borne out to be true as the EU reaction tells me if we had voted to stay the EU would have only seen that as endorsement of their agenda and it is the people who most want the EU to succeed which are causing it to fail because of their blind arrogance and have caused Britain to leave because they are so arrogant they think they are just right about everything.

[BuckSparkles]

People joining up the military out of national pride should not be allowed in the military. It's a job for professionals, not nationalistic zealots.

This is probably the most hilarious (in a bad way) thing I have seen in awhile.

I am pretty sure most join the military to serve their country and protect it at any cost. Think about it: They put their LIFE on the line for their nation, that in itself is very patriotic and full of pride for ones country.

Left-Wing folks never cease to amaze me. What do you want, lifeless drones in the military? I -want- people in the military who want to be there. If you have passion for it, you will do better.

[Krille]

Some people's knee jerk opposition to nationalism and on the other hand, a lustful embrace of statism. Oh well.

Populism rises and falls. The willful submission to the state, that'll follow your children forever.

Blah blah blah.

[vastx]

Blah blah blah.

Go run to government. Worship it and beg it for protection. And continue acting superior. Hypocrisy.

[Army Dreamer]

Majority of most important media in poland are all beginning to talk about this.

Then it is decided.