Grimoire of Sacrifice

[heinz0r]

Does anyone have some test results as to what % chance this one has to proc its damage? I mean as it looks from just reading the tooltip, it seems super lackluster, but if it had a high proc chance it might not be all that bad to pick if you run "Channel Demonfire" as destro, due to the high amount of attacks in a short time...

In comparison, the other two do not look that strong either however. The bigger pets are not really much stronger, especially when you look at the doomguard casting 2.6 seconds for 13k damage vs imp casting 1.5 seconds for 9k (due to 50% from immolate on target) and service only seems to be suited for pvp when you need some extra utility or burst. (values from PTR, so no idea what they are on beta right now)

[Gaidax]

It is RPPM, so Channel Demonfire does not increase proc rate.

As for damage, it's somewhat weak in single target, but gets stronger and stronger the more targets it hits.

[Zerach8]

currently it seems to be strongest with affl...might be rppm, but having corruption on everything and SoC poping on all targets ensures it procs asap

[JJShadoe]

I don't have any specific numbers, but I've been leveling as Affliction and I'm absolutely loving Grimoire of Sacrifice while questing. I can pull 4-5 mobs, DoT them up, drain tank one, and they disintegrate with all the GoS procs. It procs very often. No doubt less DPS on a single target then a pet would be, but not by a heck of a lot, and WAY more DPS on multi-target than a pet would be.

[heinz0r]

Ah yeah I also tested it now, seems really disappointing. As it stands now it roughly seems to proc every 10 seconds or so. Using the infernal is most likely a better option to get in a bit of extra AE damage, plus the stun that you get from it...

[Zerach8]

mind you, its RPPM is per target, so each target that u damage can proc sacrifice and is on its own rppm cd...so more targets the better it gets, on 3 targets (dummies in garrison at mage tower) it procs a lot, almost every second...obviously, it not a single target talent and a pet will always be better.

Spoiler: 

What u need to look for in skada is "demonic power"...phantom singularity doesnt seem to work on ptr atm, but from previous testing its about the same dmg as sacrfice on 3 targets
Got to about 25-30k less dps with infernal instead of sacrifice

Imo, the only real contender to affl aoe is destro's cataclysm, F&B , sacrfice and soul conduit build...as long as the immolate from cata lasts u will be swimming in embers and since Rain of fire now actually stacks the aoe potential is insane

[Cwimge]

Ah yeah I also tested it now, seems really disappointing. As it stands now it roughly seems to proc every 10 seconds or so. Using the infernal is most likely a better option to get in a bit of extra AE damage, plus the stun that you get from it...

No Shit. The "class fantasy" is for warlocks to be running around like we're all level 10 again. You WILL use a demon because it will just be better, because blizzard doesn't want us to grimsac

[Craaazyyy]

actually they should add back the main ability of your pet when you use grimoire of sac.. cause its dumb that you dont have cs for example..

[Kirroth]

No Shit. The "class fantasy" is for warlocks to be running around like we're all level 10 again. You WILL use a demon because it will just be better, because blizzard doesn't want us to grimsac

No shit it's the class fantasy. The demon pet is one of the most obvious and pervasive differences from being a Shadow Priest or Fire Mage. That's what I signed up for, that's what they're giving me, and good for them. GoSac is still there if you absolutely must play a petless Warlock, but under no circumstances should it be the numerically superior choice. I've hated it every time that's been the case going all the way back to BC.

[Cwimge]

No shit it's the class fantasy. The demon pet is one of the most obvious and pervasive differences from being a Shadow Priest or Fire Mage. That's what I signed up for, that's what they're giving me, and good for them. GoSac is still there if you absolutely must play a petless Warlock, but under no circumstances should it be the numerically superior choice. I've hated it every time that's been the case going all the way back to BC.

So render them equal. In this miserable new world grimsup will be the single target choice and overall, non aoe best pick. That whole line should even out and offer the tweak of playstyle. Do you want 2 minions, one big minion, or none. I don't want to spend 2 years with a fel imp. As a warlock, I'm better then that

[Gaidax]

Yes, I don't see Gul'dan running around with a frikkin' imp, yet he blew up Hellfire Citadel Destruction style no sweat.

But seriously, some like pets some don't, both paths are viable by lore and definition and I don't want to be chained to this little shit to do what I need to do.

So they just need to equalize them.

[gruxxar]

Yes, I don't see Gul'dan running around with a frikkin' imp, yet he blew up Hellfire Citadel Destruction style no sweat.

But seriously, some like pets some don't, both paths are viable by lore and definition and I don't want to be chained to this little shit to do what I need to do.

So they just need to equalize them.

and give us our interupt back while we're at it.

It frustrates me to no end that Sacrifice doesn't give a Demonic command ability. I just don't GET IT.

[Fearsom1992]

I agree it is dumb one of our aoe spells takes away our interrupt , I have been posting that feedback on the beta forums since alpha rip

[Kirroth]

So render them equal.

"Equal" in what sense? In early MoP they did equal Patchwerk damage, which meant Sacrifice was superior in every actual play situation. With Sac there's no lag in target swaps, there's no danger of your pet dying (huge in PvP), and if the Sac benefit is in the form of a personal damage multiplier then it always ends up scaling better. So we have a Sac that trades potential damage for greater control and convenience, with a benefit that only scales in limited ways exactly like a pet does. What do you want that you imagine would be more equal?

The only way to make Sac a minor playstyle choice without major balance implications is to make pets a minor part of your playstyle with trivial damage contribution. Which would be terrible.

[gruxxar]

"Equal" in what sense? In early MoP they did equal Patchwerk damage, which meant Sacrifice was superior in every actual play situation. With Sac there's no lag in target swaps, there's no danger of your pet dying (huge in PvP), and if the Sac benefit is in the form of a personal damage multiplier then it always ends up scaling better. So we have a Sac that trades potential damage for greater control and convenience, with a benefit that only scales in limited ways exactly like a pet does. What do you want that you imagine would be more equal?

The only way to make Sac a minor playstyle choice without major balance implications is to make pets a minor part of your playstyle with trivial damage contribution. Which would be terrible.

This would be probably stuff for another expansion but I think warlocks could do at least with 1 of their specs being pet-less, like mages have 1 spec that has a pet. Maybe they should get rid of our "demon talent row" too. I wouldn't mind at all having sac permanent and having Service as a cd from talents.

[Kirroth]

This would be probably stuff for another expansion but I think warlocks could do at least with 1 of their specs being pet-less, like mages have 1 spec that has a pet. Maybe they should get rid of our "demon talent row" too. I wouldn't mind at all having sac permanent and having Service as a cd from talents.

Pet lovers are too evenly distributed. I mean, they tried making Marksman Hunters pet-less this expac, and enough players rebelled that they put the pet back while putting no-pet on the first talent tier. It'd be exactly the same with Warlocks.

I knew a lifelong Destro Warlock who quit in disgust in Mists when he learned GoServ sucked and the other two talents would take away the Imp he'd been using since launch. That guy loved his Imp, it'd been with him through thick and thin, and he wasn't going to play if they were going to take his friend away. And I have to admit, going on the PTR and seeing my old demons again has been nice. Hukmon tanked for me when I was a clumsy newb first leveling in BC. Nheefum tore at their ankles while I drain-tanked my own path through Wrath. It's good to have them back.

[Fearsom1992]

Also sacrifice is buffed by the artifact perk shadow inspiration for 3% shadow damage on top of that the fel hunter does some sad damage because he doesn't have an artifact perk increase

[Gaidax]

"Equal" in what sense? In early MoP they did equal Patchwerk damage, which meant Sacrifice was superior in every actual play situation. With Sac there's no lag in target swaps, there's no danger of your pet dying (huge in PvP), and if the Sac benefit is in the form of a personal damage multiplier then it always ends up scaling better. So we have a Sac that trades potential damage for greater control and convenience, with a benefit that only scales in limited ways exactly like a pet does. What do you want that you imagine would be more equal?

The only way to make Sac a minor playstyle choice without major balance implications is to make pets a minor part of your playstyle with trivial damage contribution. Which would be terrible.

That's the thing, in all previous iterations GoSac was a straight % buff to damage, in Legion Sac is now RPPM nuke, this means it does not suffer from % snowballing like previous iterations.

What should be done is GoSac should lose AoE component (which currently makes it default choice in anything non pure single target anyway, in case you thought you are rid of it) and on the other hand it's single target should be boosted to match other talents in the row.

Since it's not % damage now it has no risk of snowballing like it does live and on the other hand the alternative options still have advantage in some applications, for example imp means you are using service and thus gain a DPS cooldown to pop at convenient time (Sac should be good enough to account for that), while Supremacy gives you extra flexibility of either interrupt or later some AoE option.

Not to mention important goes on while you run around and has a small survivability boost to it with anti-cc and heal.

Don't see how Sac would be a problem with Legion design with its single target being brought up, but without AoE. So equal in that sense - patchwerk but without % boost in it.

- - - Updated - - -

But in any case Sac is poised to be default choice for many encounters where you are not just nuking some target dummy, I am not terribly excited to be switching it in and out all the time, especially with restrictions in place.

[Duckz0rs]

while Supremacy gives you extra flexibility of either interrupt or later some AoE option.

How does the Infernal do compared to Sac AoE-wise in raids/dungeons?

[Gaidax]

How does the Infernal do compared to Sac AoE-wise in raids/dungeons?

Sacrifice is exceptionally strong in AoE especially once you unlock it's artifact trait, it's almost silly good for what it is. Infernal pales in comparison.