Ayaan Hirsi Ali: why aren't feminists fighting for Muslim women?

[minteK917]

What some people in this thread are suggesting is akin to the practices we used to implement with indigenous peoples, where we'd show up and forcibly push our value system on the poor backwards heathens still living in huts and using sticks to hunt for food. Things have progressed since that time, there are better approaches than being quite so heavy-handed.

Historically what you purpose never happened or worked. It think it would only work if religious faith came from a place of reasoning. Christianity took a backsteat because its own followers stopped caring about it. Polling most muslims countries clearly show they are not there and having a different faith population simply agree upon logical teaching never worked. Assimilation or wait half a century or more for them to get bored of their own faith.

[Dextroden]

If you are defining intersectonality correctly, it includes all avenues for disadvantage, such as things like SES and disability. If you're going to limit it to, "oh she's black and I'm white" etc then you're missing the point of what intersectionality is.

What's your score? I need to see if my opinion outweighs yours because you aren't oppressed enough.

[Celista]

What's your score? I need to see if my opinion outweighs yours because you aren't oppressed enough.

Ha. You might win.

[Rend Blackhand]

Because that would require actual effort instead of posting about manspreading on tumblr.

[derpkitteh]

Feminists do fight for Muslim women, there are a lot of Muslim feminists as well. A lot of work is being done by NGOs abroad.

muslim feminist is an oxymoron of the highest order.

i like this woman and she needs more attention. her ideas are so much better than the regressive cunts that spread like cancer these days.

[Rasulis]

There are people (both men and women) on the ground fighting for women’s empowerment and rights in the middle east. These people risk their life every day. With few exceptions, I rarely see anything in the news about them. Too bad.

[Kalis]

Intersectionality is simply about layers of disadvantage. You have more challenges due to culture, etc if you're a black lesbian woman than a white heterosexual female, etc.

One of the problems with intersectionality is when two "disadvantaged" groups have directly opposing views, e.g. treatment of women in large sections of the Islamic community and feminism.

This could be easily solved by feminists lambasting Islam, but that is not what feminism aims for, instead they aim at vacuous targets like manspreading - we have balls, deal with it - and ally themselves with a group that is ideologically in the completely opposite camp to them.

Intersectionality is not even good in theory, let alone in practice. It works on the same basis as "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[s_bushido]

The fact that she said that Judeo-Christian Culture built what we currently know as western civilitazation somehow irks me.

It's a Prager"University" video. They have to somehow praise white Jesus in every video they make.

[Dextroden]

Ha. You might win.

I want you to tell me for real. I want to see if you have any business talking down to me while you want to push Intersectionality.

[minteK917]

It is 100% absolutely historical revisionism to suggest colonial powers, including the infant America, never forcibly imposed their values and culture on other societies. In particular, the early American treatment of Native Americans, especially those in the east, is one of the best examples of that type of thing. We very deliberately dismantled their societies and forced assimilation.

You kinda just repeated my point. We never once in our entire history as a species turned others by simply showing them the way gently. Only assimilation. People belief are not a logical thing, you arent gona turn them by telling them something that you have the belief make sense to you. If we didnt forcefully assimilated natives they would probably be living differently, better or worse i dont know. They werent numerous enough to populate the continents like european migrants were, its unlikely they would have risen as quickly. I mean natives were still humans, they still wadge wars between each other, escpecially all the sedentary tribes that lived off agricultures.

[derpkitteh]

It is 100% absolutely historical revisionism to suggest colonial powers, including the infant America, never forcibly imposed their values and culture on other societies. In particular, the early American treatment of Native Americans, especially those in the east, is one of the best examples of that type of thing. We very deliberately dismantled their societies and forced assimilation.

it doesn't matter that this happened. this is what happened all over the world in the old times, you get up and get over it.

we're in modern times now, time to stop blaming the evil whites and change things for yourself.

[Macaquerie]

You kinda just repeated my point. We never once in our entire history as a species turned others by simply showing them the way gently. Only assimilation.

Arguably, we never turned others, period. Can you name a single place where Europeans actually succeeded in imparting their values and beliefs on the people they encountered?

[Independent voter]

Outside the Western world, women aren't very liberated. Doesn't make sense to pick on Muslims when Chinese and Indian women are in a similar situation. You see examples of liberated women in India and China but you see examples of liberated women in the Muslim world too. Mostly though women are delegated to the home.

[Deleted]

Because if you tell a western man that 'something something, patriarchy, bad for women, equality' he will say, ok, what can we do about that?
where a Muslim man will say, yes, that is how it is supposed to be - where is your husband or father?

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Arguably, we never turned others, period. Can you name a single place where Europeans actually succeeded in imparting their values and beliefs on the people they encountered?

there are several extant christian sects in various parts of the world where Western power never was strong enough to demand religious obedience -

[derpkitteh]

Outside the Western world, women aren't very liberated. Doesn't make sense to pick on Muslims when Chinese and Indian women are in a similar situation. You see examples of liberated women in India and China but you see examples of liberated women in the Muslim world too. Mostly though women are delegated to the home.

it makes sense to pick on them all. middle easterners, indians, chinese, whatever. pick on them all until they unfuck their selves and their cultures evolve to suit the modern world.

[Ryme]

Intersectionality is simply about layers of disadvantage. You have more challenges due to culture, etc if you're a black lesbian woman than a white heterosexual female, etc.

#2 is just flaming with no actual substance behind your post, noted accordingly.

#1 might have a grain of truth to this depending on the feminist in question, but to be fair the issues surrounding women in the US/the West/etc are not the same issues facing women in Asia and the Middle East.

Many of the principles of intersectionality I imagine I would accept as true as they're almost always self evident. However, the practises of people who preach intersectionality are without logic and reason. Things like accepting that there is a structural order or hierarchy to oppression, even if we can't define where the borders lie.

For the second,really? The online hate mobs that spring up if you deride anything that goes against the feminist grain is outstanding. Remember when feminists shamed the rocket scientist for his clothing choices, for example? Or how about the the rape accusation at that University campus (that was then shown to be false)? Or how about the endless abuse Christina Hoff Sommers gets? Remember Tim Hunt when he spoke his, admittedly poor, opinions?

These people exist solely in group form, you'll note it easily in the language and buzzwords and ideas that appear then fade out from the group: shitlord, mansplain, privilege, cis, trigger warnings, institutionalised, patriarchy, and most lately intersectionality.

[PC2]

Outside the Western world, women aren't very liberated. Doesn't make sense to pick on Muslims when Chinese and Indian women are in a similar situation. You see examples of liberated women in India and China but you see examples of liberated women in the Muslim world too. Mostly though women are delegated to the home.

True, but those are single nations not a religous culture. You would need to compare it to Hindu culture for it to be apples to apples.

[minteK917]

Arguably, we never turned others, period. Can you name a single place where Europeans actually succeeded in imparting their values and beliefs on the people they encountered?

Native americans are a decent example, they had no actual meterialism or even idea about ownership of lands before assimilation. Now they revendicate ownership of lands. We only have example of using force, because its the only way it half works.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Besides requiring actual effort and not gaining anything for themselves, another reason imho is that the biggest enemy for modern feminism is the conservative side (in the west). They are usually against Muslims for various reasons. Since agreeing with the conservative side is a total no go for femi-facists, they ironically find themselves siding with another brand of conservatives, because these conservatives pose no "danger" to them and the western conservatives supply them with plenty of ammunition this way.

[Guchie]

You've only described the radical feminism existent in the third wave of feminism.

As with everything else there is, you will always find a portion that either pushes the boundaries too far, or outright misuses something.
And that is the case with feminism too.
Good job though, using the bigger brush.

That's like the tale of the moderate muslim who only believes beheadings are ok but would never engage in it.

The feminists wont engage in fringe behaviour, but if they disagree they sure aren't showing it.