History question Serbia and Croats

[EternalBany]

hey there, i just spent quite some time going through the bosnian war, the croats serbs, the yuguslavia breakup and finally the warrant for Radovan Karadžić.
And i still dont get it, i am a bit overwhelmed and confused.
It was 1 country called bosnia and hezergovina breaking apart from the collective of countries that were fused together by the soviets and called iguslavia

is this right?
why did serbs considered croats to be fascists?
how do turks fit into the equation at all?

[alexw]

hey there, i just spent quite some time going through the bosnian war, the croats serbs, the yuguslavia breakup and finally the warrant for Radovan Karadžić.
And i still dont get it, i am a bit overwhelmed and confused.
It was 1 country called bosnia and hezergovina breaking apart from the collective of countries that were fused together by the soviets and called iguslavia

is this right?
why did serbs considered croats to be fascists?
how do turks fit into the equation at all?

If you are really interested I suggest you watch this documentary series that lays out exactly what happened -

[EternalBany]

If you are really interested I suggest you watch this documentary series that lays out exactly what happened -

thank you, will do

[Kontinuum]

why did serbs considered croats to be fascists?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e

[Independent voter]

How did Tito hold all that together? Did he imprison a lot of people?

[Deleted]

How did Tito hold all that together? Did he imprison a lot of people?

There was an island called Goli otok (Nude Island), where alot of people were send to prison for alot of different things, freedom of speech wasn't a thing back then. But that was just one of his ways holding it together, he was the only thing that did held it together though. Slovenia is to blame aswell for making it fall apart and we were lucky the Yugoslavian army didn't attack us although it was a tough week or a bit more of fear they would come.

[Deleted]

Yugoslavia was formed by 6 republics, one of which is Bosnia and Herzegovina, others being Croatia, Serbia and 3 more.

After the war in the '90s, only Serbia and Montenegro remained inside Yugoslavia but as you know, in 2006 Montenegro separated from Serbia.
Turkey role there is historic because Turkey's territory used to be all the way to Bosnia and that's why there are muslims in Bosnia. Bosnia and Herzegovina position also means that it's historically been on the border of west and east, of catholicism and orthodox church. So, 3 nations, 3 religions.

Now, the Bosnia and Herzegovina holds the territory, more or less, of the republic Bosnia and Hercegovina that used to be a part of Yugoslavia. According to constitution, it's consisted of 3 nations, Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks, with the Bosniaks being overwhelmingly muslim, croats overwhelmingly Catholic and Serbs orthodox.

According to the recently published result of 'population listing' from 2013, not sure about the appropriate english term for this, 50% were Bosniaks, 31% Serbs and 16% Croats.

Okay, let's go deeper now. Bosnia is the name of Central-northern region, and Herzegovina is located in the south. They have different landscape and culture.

Within Bosnia and Herzegowina, you have Federation of Bosnia and Herzegowina and Republika Srpska entities, with the Federation being 51% of the territory. In Republika Srpska, 84% of people are Serbs. This separation is the result of Dayton treaty. You may have also heard about Herceg-Bosnia, it should have been for the Croats what Republika Srpska is for the Serbs, but Dayton treaty wasn't as kind to Croats living in B&H.

Now, a personal opinion from someone who grew up there and ran away as soon as he could. I think B&H is largely held together by the UN, and if outside control ended, it would collapse into 3 countries, with the Serbs probably getting some or all of Republika Srpska, Croats south and west Herzegowina where there are 90%+ Croats and the Bosniaks getting the rest.

[EternalBany]

Bosnia is the name of Central-northern region, and Herzegovina is located in the south. They have different landscape and culture.

Within Bosnia and Herzegowina, you have Federation of Bosnia and Herzegowina and Republika Srpska entities, with the Federation being 51% of the territory. In Republika Srpska, 84% of people are Serbs. This separation is the result of Dayton treaty. You may have also heard about Herceg-Bosnia, it should have been for the Croats what Republika Srpska is for the Serbs, but Dayton treaty wasn't as kind to Croats living in B&H.

Now, a personal opinion from someone who grew up there and ran away as soon as he could. I think B&H is largely held together by the UN, and if outside control ended, it would collapse into 3 countries, with the Serbs probably getting some or all of Republika Srpska, Croats south and west Herzegowina where there are 90%+ Croats and the Bosniaks getting the rest.

holy cow..what a mess

Do you think that it is wrong and a matter of time for it to happen? i mean, political agendas or not crimea had to be russian, the people and costumes were russian.
The same argument could be made for this case, it is too balcanized and fragmented holding together under a fake name and flag

[sarahtasher]

Without going into personnal and national name calling, the least that can be said is that most nationalities in the region have legit claims to say ''X group killed our ancestors''. It was unfortunately usually as retaliation for a previous killing.

Kosovo, the apple of discord. Only during the previous centuries, Serbs annexated it after the Balkan War. There was an immediate orgy of repression on Albanians, who gleefully shot back at the retreating Serbs during WW1. The Serbs repressed them with greater brutality in 1919. Then there was the terrible three way war between Royalists yugoslavs, communists yugoslaves and Axis forces (everyone using this as a pretext to back ''their'' ethnic group, for instance the Italian pushed Albanians, the Nazis Croats) followed by yet another orgy of repression in 1945. Albanians then had the joy of being the target of various repressive movements up to 1990, according to the elb and flow of Albanian-Yugoslavian relations (with Hoxa mental health, it was really low quite often). Then Milosevic trying to ''Serbize'' Kosovo....

- - - Updated - - -

holy cow..what a mess

Do you think that it is wrong and a matter of time for it to happen? i mean, political agendas or not crimea had to be russian, the people and costumes were russian.
The same argument could be made for this case, it is too balcanized and fragmented holding together under a fake name and flag

It was tried two times to prop it as Yugoslavia, and Serbs proved two times their unwillingness to have a country that did not amounted as ''Serbland''

[Deleted]

holy cow..what a mess

Do you think that it is wrong and a matter of time for it to happen? i mean, political agendas or not crimea had to be russian, the people and costumes were russian.
The same argument could be made for this case, it is too balcanized and fragmented holding together under a fake name and flag

Predicting anything in the Balkan region is quite complicated to say the least, but I feel like there's a fair chance that it will eventually break apart.

Bosniaks are learning Bosniak curiculum in schools, Croats croatian and Serbs serbian. They have their own news papers and politicians which love to add fuel to the fire.
Country is very, very poor. People are stressed out, just 20 years ago they were in war among each other. If Yugoslavia failed, so will B&H imho.

[Kuntantee]

If Yugoslavia failed, so will B&H imho.

Serbs need to make sure not enraging and berserking this time tho, unless they want to be bombed into oblivion for the third time.

[sarahtasher]

Predicting anything in the Balkan region is quite complicated to say the least, but I feel like there's a fair chance that it will eventually break apart.

Bosniaks are learning Bosniak curiculum in schools, Croats croatian and Serbs serbian. They have their own news papers and politicians which love to add fuel to the fire.
Country is very, very poor. People are stressed out, just 20 years ago they were in war among each other. If Yugoslavia failed, so will B&H imho.

If they wanted to separate, that would not be such an issue-it's always that they want to separate ''but we need Bosnian A town to have a one piece territory, and there is some hundreds of Serbs in Croat B Village and....'' AKA take territory without Serbs and/or emppty it of non Serbs.

Yeah :either it's negotiation with ''give and take'' approach to have viable states, or it's ''we are the stronger, we take what we want''-a seductive approach, except that the Serbs failed largely to overpower Bosnia and Croatia, not exactly powerhouses....

[Deleted]

Ok, let's respond in short:
Basically several cultures were there. After WW1 Yugoslavia was first formed. It took parts of Austro-Hungary too as Serbia was on the winning side and was renamed Yugoslavia. In WW2 Italy, Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria split it between them but a puppet state of Croatia was formed as many of the croats wanted to fight for the Axis and have an independent nation (Croatians weren't the only people to do this by the way)
During the war someone lead a great guerilla war, this was Tito. Tito was a communist and after the war he was hailed as a great hero and came to power (to note, Yugoslavia was not part of the soviet side on the Yalta split). Now, USSR approached him to be part of the block of communist nations. He refused. So basically, he was indeed a dictator, he was communist, but he was outside USSR's power.

Now, Tito kept the nation together by treating everyone equal(except Albanians, this is due to the fact that Albania was USSR aligned mostly) and ensuring some prosperity. However, he also used incarceration of those he found to be threats (like stalinists or nationalist Albanians living there).

Now, when he died, Slobodan Milosevic started trying to restore the position of power Serbia had over the other nation-like entities. This created unrest. It culminated with the Yugoslav break-up when some nations declared independence and Serbia sent forces against the others, resulting in some genocides performed by several of the sides.

How do turks fit in the equation? We have to go back waaaay further. Once upon a time the Ottoman Empire had reached Hungary, so current Yugoslavia was under its grasp. As it was forced to retreat, muslim converts from the conquered nations remained behind. Most of them were in Bosnia/Hertzegovina of today.

As for Bosnia & Hertzegovina, basically it shouldn't truly exist. It was mostly the buffer zone between the Croats and the Serbs and some Bosnians caught in the middle. Still, when it was formed, it was split in 3, can't remember exact entities, but the point is that it still has some strife and it's an artificial nation more or less. Which is why it's doing so bad.

[burek]

why did serbs considered croats to be fascists?

because they are. they commited massive genocide against serbs in ww2 and are still proud of that. during the 90s they commited a massive ethnic cleansing of serbs and are still proud of that, they celebrate it as a national holiday or something

how do turks fit into the equation at all?

turks are responsible for 500 years of opression against serbs (XIV-XIX centuries), and for bringing islam to these areas, which was and will continue to be the cause for major conflicts. the wars in bosnia and kosovo were started by muslims

[EternalBany]

Ok, let's respond in short:
Basically several cultures were there. After WW1 Yugoslavia was first formed. It took parts of Austro-Hungary too as Serbia was on the winning side and was renamed Yugoslavia. In WW2 Italy, Germany, Hungary and Bulgaria split it between them but a puppet state of Croatia was formed as many of the croats wanted to fight for the Axis and have an independent nation (Croatians weren't the only people to do this by the way)
During the war someone lead a great guerilla war, this was Tito. Tito was a communist and after the war he was hailed as a great hero and came to power (to note, Yugoslavia was not part of the soviet side on the Yalta split). Now, USSR approached him to be part of the block of communist nations. He refused. So basically, he was indeed a dictator, he was communist, but he was outside USSR's power.

Now, Tito kept the nation together by treating everyone equal(except Albanians, this is due to the fact that Albania was USSR aligned mostly) and ensuring some prosperity. However, he also used incarceration of those he found to be threats (like stalinists or nationalist Albanians living there).

Now, when he died, Slobodan Milosevic started trying to restore the position of power Serbia had over the other nation-like entities. This created unrest. It culminated with the Yugoslav break-up when some nations declared independence and Serbia sent forces against the others, resulting in some genocides performed by several of the sides.

How do turks fit in the equation? We have to go back waaaay further. Once upon a time the Ottoman Empire had reached Hungary, so current Yugoslavia was under its grasp. As it was forced to retreat, muslim converts from the conquered nations remained behind. Most of them were in Bosnia/Hertzegovina of today.

As for Bosnia & Hertzegovina, basically it shouldn't truly exist. It was mostly the buffer zone between the Croats and the Serbs and some Bosnians caught in the middle. Still, when it was formed, it was split in 3, can't remember exact entities, but the point is that it still has some strife and it's an artificial nation more or less. Which is why it's doing so bad.

Now THAt makes alot of sense, thank you for taking the time to write that.
I know information is available to us all, but sometimes it is too much information and hard to pinpoint the important facts and events.
Essencially to put in plain language the nationalistic serbs with a communist backdrop got invaded and had to duke it out with fascist croats in a dispute for the land - which both sides believed to be their birthright, and both commited war crimes, in the mist of things gypsies and muslims were knocked around plenty.

[Berengil]

I dated a girl from Serbia in high school. She was an exchange student and had just started her time here when everything in the former Yugoslavia started to really kick off. What i got from her was basically:

Yugoslavia was an artificial creation after WW 1.

The only thing that held it together after ww 2 was Marshal Tito's iron fist.

He had ruled so long that it took about 10 or so years after he died for everything to start going to hell.

In her opinion, the hatreds in the Balkans went back so far and so deep, NATO ( and by extension The US) would have to park their forces there and fairly adjudicate territorial questions to stop the bloodshed.

[Kuntantee]

Essencially to put in plain language the nationalistic serbs with a communist backdrop got invaded and had to duke it out with fascist croats and both commited war crimes, in the mist of things gypsies and muslims were knocked around plenty.

I am not sure how you deduced that from the information give in this thread. All of the action in 90s in Eastern Europe are principally territorial disputes. Three ethnicities within The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina pretty much fought with each other for territory.

It's not "Serbs got invaded", you just made that shit up out of thin air. The Serbs in the region, supported by Serbia, tried to secure rather large chunk of territory, ended up fighting against Bosniaks and Croats. It's not "both sides committed war crimes", it's almost exclusively Serbs berserking in Bosnian War. It's not "Muslims stuck in middle", the Muslims aka Bosniaks were fighting against Serbs (and later Croats?) and Bosniak civilians were deliberately targeted by Serbs. It's the same shit in Kosova War.

[Deleted]

because they are. they commited massive genocide against serbs in ww2 and are still proud of that. during the 90s they commited a massive ethnic cleansing of serbs and are still proud of that, they celebrate it as a national holiday or something

You're basically calling all Croats fascists because of crimes some people did before 70 years? Also, who is proud of those crimes? Can you quote some RELEVANT people who actually said that? It would be nice if some people started living in 2016., instead of being stuck in the past.

And about the "Operation Storm": Croats celebrate it because it lead to end of the war which Serbs of Croatia started in the first place. Crimes did happen during the Operation, but nothing such as ethnic cleansing, so please keep your propaganda for yourself.

[KOMO1211]

from my understanding of the situation in the part of the world this video sums up pretty well. of course there is always bias and whatnot so im sure its no perfect.

[Igi]

I'm from Serbia and its actually very easy to explain.
After WW2 we had an amazing country called Yugoslavia (which in today's terms is Slovenia + Bosnia + Croatia + Serbia + Montenegro + Macedonia). Yugoslavia was ruled by marshal Tito. It was some sort of successful communism. EVERYONE had a job, EVERYONE had enough money to do anything. For example my parents would travel at least 5-6 times a year, now we do it once every 3 years. Then Tito died, politicians fought for power, country split up, we started fighting each other like idiots. If you ask who started the war everyone will say "we only defended ourselves". That's why we all hate each other now, and even today politicians use that hatred to steal as much money as possible. You know what they say, divide and conquer, if we fight each other we can't fight corrupted government.