Questions about why EU needs immigrants.

[PC2]

Europe and America are taking a different route. The hope of the EU is that immigrants will do for Europe what historical immigration did for the US. However the levels needed in some cases are so high as to essentially remake the countries of Europe in terms of social attitudes since you cannot acculturate people and assimilate them at nearly the rate that Europe is currently bringing them in OR would need to bring them in to make up for the short falls.

The problem is we exist in a very different technological atmosphere than when the US was taking migrants early on. Advancing automation could destroy any hope of migration playing an analogous role to past centuries of the US. Though if the migration process is slow enough it should be fine.

[Sama-81]

No one would pay you 100k a year, if there's 50 engineers in line who'd do it for 20, just to have some money.

Yeah, that line of reasoning doesn't work for all of the EU though. Some countries have unions that are very powerful indeed.

[Theodarzna]

The problem is we exist in a very different technological atmosphere than when the US was taking migrants early on. Advancing automation could destroy any hope of migration playing an analogous role to past centuries of the US. Though if the migration process is slow enough it should be fine.

Well at the end of the day, the migrants offer consumption, and demand for property as well as keep wages low. For the powerful they offer something great.

While our technology is new, the economics we ultimately live under is in a mechanical way, ancient. An aged country generates very little growth and very little demand as old people tend to be poor consumers.

[Gully Man]

Yeah, that line of reasoning doesn't work for all of the EU though. Some countries have unions that are very powerful indeed.

Yep. In Sweden the idea of immigrants being needed for menial jobs doesn't apply because most jobs are relatively well paid across the board.

[Theodarzna]

Yeah, that line of reasoning doesn't work for all of the EU though. Some countries have unions that are very powerful indeed.

The UK had strong Labour for a spell, but things do have a funny way of changing.

[Independent voter]

Yep. In Sweden the idea of immigrants being needed for menial jobs doesn't apply because most jobs are relatively well paid across the board.

Is it true immigrants can't get jobs in Sweden because nobody wants to hire an unskilled laborer for $18 an hour?

In the US you can get an unskilled laborer job for $8 and people will hire you for that amount.

[PC2]

Is it true immigrants can't get jobs in Sweden because nobody wants to hire an unskilled laborer for $18 an hour?

In the US you can get an unskilled laborer job for $8 and people will hire you for that amount.

This forum has a lot of European Millennials who probably don't care about policy being significantly sub-optimal for industry.

[Sama-81]

The UK had strong Labour for a spell, but things do have a funny way of changing.

Well, our 'confederation' of trade unions is over 100 years old, exceptionally strong indeed, and is definitely not likely to become particularly less so anytime soon. And that despite the fact that the political party that is our equivalent to the Labour Party, has itself grown far weaker than it used to be, over the last number of years. So what the poster I responded to said is still not true, as a blanket statement regarding the EU. I have no doubts however, that it fits other members far better than it does us.

[Gully Man]

Is it true immigrants can't get jobs in Sweden because nobody wants to hire an unskilled laborer for $18 an hour?

In the US you can get an unskilled laborer job for $8 and people will hire you for that amount.

Unions bargain with employers and wages are determined through that. There's no minimum wage. Even those who aren't members of the unions are covered by these agreements. So there's not really any reason to employ an immigrant in a menial job over a native if they both cost the same.

[Independent voter]

Unions bargain with employers and wages are determined through that. There's no minimum wage. Even those who aren't members of the unions are covered by these agreements. So there's not really any reason to employ an immigrant in a menial job over a native if they both cost the same.

Our refugees are self sufficient and paying taxes in an average of six month's time.

[Sama-81]

Is it true immigrants can't get jobs in Sweden because nobody wants to hire an unskilled laborer for $18 an hour?

In the US you can get an unskilled laborer job for $8 and people will hire you for that amount.

It's basically impossible in Sweden, on any meaningful level. At least at this point in time, it is. Our unions would never, ever allow it. And they are certainly able to prevent it from happening, as things are. Some parties of course want to introduce jobs that pay far less than normal, as a response to the refugee-crisis, but the ruling party (for one) is heavily opposed to it. And that is in regards to refugees, to do the same for natives...ain't going to happen. Which in fact is partly why the resistance is so heavy towards the proposal in the first place - apart from outright disliking it they fear that it will eventually lead to more of the same. Not to mention that we simply do not have many jobs available for unskilled laborers here...

Our refugees are self sufficient and paying taxes in an average of six month's time.

Yeah well, our unemployment numbers were rather high before the refugee-crisis, so...yeah. Besides, it would literally not surprise me if they get more money here while unemployed, after 6 months of being here, than they do over there as newly employed...

[Gully Man]

Our refugees are self sufficient and paying taxes in an average of six month's time.

Roughly 500 of the 160,000 who came last year are in work, and the average time it takes to get refugees into some form of work is 7 years. I imagine this will increase by a fair bit due to the sheer numbers who have come over the last three years.

[Azadina]

Roughly 500 of the 160,000 who came last year are in work, and the average time it takes to get refugees into some form of work is 7 years. I imagine this will increase by a fair bit due to the sheer numbers who have come over the last three years.

And using that 7 years estimate to those who talk about profits; atleast here each refugee costs 40-50k per year. If they get a job after 7, they will never even be able to pay back in taxes what it cost to get them employed. Let alone some imaginary profits some people talk about.

[sarahtasher]

Countries have always needed migration-it's just that French racists made angry speeches toward Provençaux and Bretons, then went to make speeches toward Italians and Poles....

[Roadblock]

It needs immigrants because capitalists can use them to push the local workforce salaries down.
That's how you make profits.

[Theodarzna]

It's basically impossible in Sweden, on any meaningful level. At least at this point in time, it is. Our unions would never, ever allow it. And they are certainly able to prevent it from happening, as things are. Some parties of course want to introduce jobs that pay far less than normal, as a response to the refugee-crisis, but the ruling party (for one) is heavily opposed to it. And that is in regards to refugees, to do the same for natives...ain't going to happen. Which in fact is partly why the resistance is so heavy towards the proposal in the first place - apart from outright disliking it they fear that it will eventually lead to more of the same. Not to mention that we simply do not have many jobs available for unskilled laborers here...

Yeah well, our unemployment numbers were rather high before the refugee-crisis, so...yeah. Besides, it would literally not surprise me if they get more money here while unemployed, after 6 months of being here, than they do over there as newly employed...

Doesn't Sweden have a bit of a housing crisis?

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Countries have always needed migration-it's just that French racists made angry speeches toward Provençaux and Bretons, then went to make speeches toward Italians and Poles....

Woooo Liberals care about Breton's now? Man were is this attitude when its discussions of preserving the Breton language?

[sarahtasher]

France, right or left, had always a centralization tendancy to erase local language since the fall of the monarchy. This is not a ''liberal'' versus ''conservative'' POV, it's Républicains (not Republicans) vs die hard monarchist trying to woe Bretons.

[Theodarzna]

France, right or left, had always a centralization tendancy to erase local language since the fall of the monarchy. This is not a ''liberal'' versus ''conservative'' POV, it's Républicains (not Republicans) vs die hard monarchist trying to woe Bretons.

No, I am just noting that whenever I bring up the topic of minority or endangered languages, particularly the Celtic ones, the same full fledged Social Justice and proudly progressive crowd spits all over it and calls it worthless.

[Sama-81]

Doesn't Sweden have a bit of a housing crisis?

A bit? No. A major one? Indeed we do. Rental apartments aren't exactly easy to get your hands on, these days. That is likely the main reason why the government (ruling party is very refugee-friendly, and the party they collaborate with is straight out extremist in that aspect) finally decided it was time to shut the borders, in the first place. Not to mention that basically noone wants to build such apartments either, since condominiums are so much more lucrative. The housing crisis is going to be a very good argument for the opposition, come election times...

Edit: The latest brilliant move by the Migration Agency btw, when we're talking about the housing crisis, was to rent a bloody cruise ship for £65k a day, to house refugees...