Game key reseller G2A moves to legitimise its business

[Paula Deen]

Says games are shorter then 2 years ago.

Lists a games MP map offerings as proof of game length.

Are we even debating in the same universe? Because it seems you lack understanding of the words you're using. Maybe they mean something different in yours /shrug.

We are, you aren't even fucking debating at this point. You are making pathetic attempts at moving the goal post because I just showed you that Battlefield, a franchise played for its Multiplayer, is objectively removing content and putting it into DLC. I could include Battlefront if you want me to. It will show the same damn thing. They are purposefully withholding content for more money.

[KrazyK923]

More bullshit PR spin after TB's public shaming.

[Tech614]

We are, you aren't even fucking debating at this point. You are making pathetic attempts at moving the goal post because I just showed you that Battlefield, a franchise played for its Multiplayer, is objectively removing content and putting it into DLC. I could include Battlefront if you want me to. It will show the same damn thing. They are purposefully withholding content for more money.

So where is your evidence that players are going to get less play time on average out of BF1 then they did out of BF4?

Where is your evidence that average play time of games has reduced in the last 2 years?

The only one moving the goal post is the person grasping at straws when their flimsy house got blown down by the "big bad wolf".

You made a bullshit statement, got called on it, moved on to a completely unrelated point and acted like it proved the first one so tell me are you going to move said goal post back to it's origin or are you done with your argument? Because right now you're coming off pretty weak and desperate tbh.

[barackopala]

Great. It isn't illegal.

The day Game Developers stop charging 120 Dollars for complete games is the day I stop using it. Only games I don't buy from G2A are Blizzard because they are reasonable priced for what they are.

it is too m8, the company itself is unethical and is selling stolen accounts, the fact that you sell stolen content in your store makes you liable for it.

[Paula Deen]

Sorry it takes so long to reply Edge. Its giant walls of text, from each of us :P

...it does. If they had never planned to include any additional content in the launch version of the game, then the existence of post-launch DLC is irrelevant. Perceived slights are meaningless in this case, especially in a market where post-launch DLC is commonplace.

Alright, like I said, I do not know much of Dark Souls II or III. You probably have me in a pinch here, however, I will say this about Dark Souls II specifically. They did the undefendable by rereleasing the same game just so you could use DX11, not only did they do that, they had the balls to charge you for DX11 if you already bought the game and all its DLC.

Beyond what I just said, which is irrelevant to your point, I know nothing about Dark Souls and its DLC. The game originally came up because I was asked if I played it. I really shouldn't have included the rest of the stuff in there about it, because beyond the first game I know very little about it.

In general, not specific to one game. Battlefront, we know was pushed out early. Battlefield 1? It's too early to say, as we don't have a complete picture of what's in at launch and what's not. I know the French are DLC, but that's planned for post launch content already. We can't say for certain if it would have made it into the base game or not.

We do know 100% the maps, which are what the majority of the game is played on. I linked them above. I will disregard this.

This is factually incorrect. Some games nowadays are shorter experiences, some offer dozens upon dozens (hundreds) of hours of gameplay. Just like games 5 years ago, and 10 years ago, and 15 years ago. Games today continue to be as diverse, far more so as a matter of fact, in terms of what they offer as they've historically been.

When I say games I mean AAA titles, I think you know that :P I am not talking about Risk of Rain, I am not talking about Gone Home, I am specifically referring to the Ass Creed, Far Cry, and Call of Duty type AAA games.

And in days of old if you wanted more content you either purchased an expansion (similarly priced to modern season passes) or they sold full priced sequels. Same thing, different delivery.

Actually, not even close. An expansion was typically about half as long as a base game, possibly the same length as the base game. I point to Beyond the Sword for Civilization IV. I point to the DOOM 3 Expansion. You also typically only paid 30 Dollars, never more. Base games at the time were 40 to 45 Dollars. I grew up in the 2000s as a poor kid. I remember how much I had to work to get games. Prices have barely changed since 2000 *for base games*. You act like we went from 115 to 120. We went from 80 to 120. Even accounting for inflation that number is insane.

...why? It's the truth. The cost of making games has gone up dramatically, as have player expectations, while the price of games has not similarly increased. That's absolutely 100% relevant to the discussion.

Because, as I said, they are more expensive because of Graphic Fidelity, which for some odd reason has been getting progressively worse since the new console generation. We have also had a large drop in Optimization for games. You don't pay more for something worse. That isn't how any industry, other than video games, works. Would you rather pay to see Avatar 2 in 3D for 60 Bucks or would you rather see After Earth with its original effects in 3D for 60 Bucks?

Some games do, some games don't. Budgets are different, development time fluctuates, and user perception of graphical fidelity differs. But a game like Uncharted 4 or Doom absolutely destroys Crysis 3 when it comes to visual fidelity. And as a heads up Crysis 3 launched with plenty of its own performance issues. Thankfully, we live in a time when performance issues can be addressed in post-launch patches.

I will admit, graphic fidelity, to a point, is subjective, you are correct, however I am going to argue that texture fidelity has dropped, even in the two games you specifically listed. It is painfully obvious, especially when you compare original shots of both games. I want them to look like what they show and run like they do now. Not the reverse. I would say that opinion is held by a majority. This is a debate for another thread though.

Price gouge? They don't need to drop the price for a game like GTA V anymore, people are still buying it at 30-40% discount. Prices drop when sales dry up, so until Rockstar see's sales stop, like for LA Noir for example, they drop the price bigtime.

I covered this in the below portion, and I covered it separately again with Tech. I won't fill up this post with more words.

It was a bit shady, but they weren't getting "more" money, they were getting the same amount of money while consumers were getting some additional stuff. If you still didn't want to pay that price (like I didn't) you simply continue to hold out until it's cheaper. It's not as if there aren't a million other super cheap games to play.

A virtual currency being forced on you so you pay 60 Dollars is complete bullshit and I don't even want to begin to get into a discussion about a virtual currency being an object.

Valve addressed this already, you get a discount on any bundle where you own content from it. I could have purchased the Just Cause 3/Rise of the Tomb Raider bundle for $30 because I already own Just Cause 3. So RotTR for $30 from the bundle, compared to the $40 that the game was selling for on its own.

Funny you should mention Valve, they even did it over the last sale. Guess what they did? When you go to buy the Classic Half Life Bundle, it includes Half Life Source, which was fully priced. Even Valve is getting on board with the stuff they are supposedly 'cracking down on"

Man, I feel so gouged looking through the last Steam sale where I was deciding not to not buy AAA game after AAA game that was on sale for 50-75% off, or recently released games that were on sale for 25-50% off.

What sale were you looking at? I was looking at 25% to 50% off on everything. The only games going for 50 to 75 were older titles (read 1 to 2 years) and shovel ware shit that shouldn't even be on Steam at all. I will admit, I do buy quite a few games, so maybe I just didn't see them, but the only title I found that I wanted on sale this time around was Half Life 1 and Roller Coaster Tycoon 2. Both of them were at 75 percent off. Both of them sell for 10 Dollars. Once again though, subjective, Steam Sale worth is subjective.

So where is your evidence that players are going to get less play time on average out of BF1 then they did out of BF4?

Where is your evidence that average play time of games has reduced in the last 2 years?

The only one moving the goal post is the person grasping at straws when their flimsy house got blown down by the "big bad wolf".

You made a bullshit statement, got called on it, moved on to a completely unrelated point and acted like it proved the first one so tell me are you going to move said goal post back to it's origin or are you done with your argument? Because right now you're coming off pretty weak and desperate tbh.

Of for the love of god, here have Battlefield 4 and Battlefront Player Metrics.

http://bf4stats.com/
http://swbstats.com/
http://bfhstats.com/

Have Hardline too because I KNOW you are gonna move your goal post, AGAIN, and go into a rant about how Battlefront and Battlefield aren't the same thing.

Look at those player statistics. Its almost like the game that gouges customers for money gets less overall players. Gee I fucking wonder why, do you have any ideas?

it is too m8, the company itself is unethical and is selling stolen accounts, the fact that you sell stolen content in your store makes you liable for it.

Ummmm no. That isn't even slightly whats happening here. Little Billy gets his Credit Card stolen and Big Jim buys 5000 Keys with it then resells them on G2A. Little Billy does a charge back and then the Game Key Creator (Developer) loses money. G2A did nothing illegal. The person who stole Little Billy's credit card did.

[Jtbrig7390]

It's the same market as those who sells used games.

No it isn't. In order for a used game to be used it must be sold new and that's where developers got money. With G2A the keys are stolen and company's have to do charge backs. Just because the game cost them $30 doesn't mean the charge back will give them $30. Charge backs hurt the credit of the company and in the end normally cost more then what is lost "Depending".

The rest of what you said is true.

G2A is worse then pirating. You can't prove pirating is a lost sell but G2A is and even cost them more.

[Tech614]

Look at those player statistics. Its almost like the game that gouges customers for money gets less overall players. Gee I fucking wonder why, do you have any ideas?

Yes, because that has completely to do with the game length and not the fact that neither is a traditional battlefield game or directly comparable to BF4.

Let's also keep in mind BF Hardline was released almost 2 years ago so it should be longer the games today by your own claim LMAO.

You keep clinging to this BF straw, so I ask you again where is your proof that games are "shorter" then 2 years ago? Here how about this, I will even concede BF may be "shorter" even though you have done nothing to prove this. Let's disregard it, and let's see you prove it for oh I don't know, all of the 100s of other games released over the last 2 years.

[Jtbrig7390]

Yes, because that has completely to do with the game length and not the fact that neither is a traditional battlefield game or directly comparable to BF4.

Let's also keep in mind BF Hardline was released 2 years ago so it should be longer the games today by your own claim LMAO.

You keep clinging to this BF straw, so I ask you again where is your proof that games are "shorter" then 2 years ago? Here how about this, I will even concede BF may be "shorter" even though you have done nothing to prove this. Let's disregard it, and let's see you prove it for oh I don't know, all of the 100s of other games released over the last 2 years.

IMO the amount of content in Dark Souls 3 is fucken insane.

To add to your point, BF3 cost more to make then BFBC2. So its going to be a given it lacks abit more in maps but the size of them and detail is much much greater. That is something people don't consider.

Ya BF4 "Mite" have less content then BF3 but the quality (Objectively) is much higher.

Also while I hate Battlefront the content it provides is high quality (In Map detail and sound) considering they made it in a year and half.

[Paula Deen]

Yes, because that has completely to do with the game length and not the fact that neither is a traditional battlefield game or directly comparable to BF4.

Player Metrics are literal direct proof that games are shorter. Hardline was literally a BF4 Reskin with less launch maps and more DLC. It flopped because of two things. Too Much DLC and the Theme. Go look at ANY actual analysis of the product. BattleFRONT isn't a Battlefield Reskin, its an independent DICE Project. It flopped, despite having the fucking Star Wars name, because there is nothing to do in the game besides unlock character appearences. The game also was harmed deeply by all the maps locked behind DLC. Once again, any critical analysis will tell you this.

You keep clinging to this BF straw, so I ask you again where is your proof that games are "shorter" then 2 years ago?

So which is it? Is Battlefield: Hardline and Battlefront, Traditional Battlefield games or are they not bud? You didn't even wait to finish the post before you flip flopped.

Here how about this, I will even concede BF may be "shorter" even though you have done nothing to prove this.

I did bud, I used objective facts about game maps, the games contents, and player metrics to show you the one that came out in 2013 is doing better than the ones that came out in 2014 and 2015. I even told you why, just above, specifically, they are doing so badly. You just do not care to hear it and keep moving the god damn goal post away because it is hurting your points. Its quite frustrating to try and formulate a legitimate complaint and prove why you think what you do when you keep changing opinions and moving your endgame further and further along. Its like a little kid when they ask why after every question. Its obnoxious.

Let's disregard it, and let's see you prove it for oh I don't know, all of the 100s of other games released over the last 2 years.

You know this won't work, and you know why it won't work. This would require hours of effort and more likely than not, most of the games over this time period have no way of tracking player metrics. I could show you Evolve. A game that started off promising as ever and was made by the creators of Left 4 Dead. I could show you how up until it went Free to Play just a few days ago it was dead on every single platform due to the constant stream of reskin and broken DLC, most of which would have required minimal effort to make in a texture program by an unpaid intern. I could show you how now that they are Free to Play, and removed almost all of the bloaty DLC and added it to the base game the player count is literally the highest it has ever been? Would that soothe you?

Here have a link to Steam Charts for Evolve. Be sure to look at the long term. http://steamcharts.com/app/273350#All

[Remilia]

The ones supporting G2A, you guys realize that fraud / back charge credit card purchases actually hurt the developers that you're purchasing from. From a streamer I've watched, if someone accidentally donates more than wanted and wants it back, aside from being a dick move, he will offer to transfer the money back manually instead of having the person issue a charge back. A charge back assumes fraudulent activity on the supplier side, and thus a fine is placed on them along with a credit mark. If too many are placed their bank account actually gets locked. This is a big issue for small devs and such, bigger companies have a bigger profile and better ways to take the consequences of charge backs, but as noted for small devs, yeah good luck.

The games you are buying on G2A and such sites, the devs more than likely have not gotten a sale or equal compensation from the origin of the keys. Think of what you will of the publishers, but the devs are the ones that suffers. Less funding for the devs the more likelihood that they're going to get axed or whatever and well, no more games for you. Comparing it to used games sales is a terrible comparison. Devs at least got a legitimate sale before it got put on the used market, in this case there is no legitimate sale.

When people say worse than piracy they weren't joking. Piracy never incurred a sale at any point, and so the end user is not under any illusion that they have a legitimate key. Issue with this is that the end user 'owns' a key and thus a sale will never ever happen at any point thereafter and the devs get a fine, making them pay for your entertainment instead of getting compensation that they're supposed to get.

Less revenue and in turn profit = less games being developed = your own hobby is fucked, stop it...

[wowaccounttom]

wtf is a social media profile and how do i eat it?


they do know not everyone is out there telling the world when they farted or left the house... right?

what about fake profiles? those have been out for a while, thousands can be bought for mere pocket change, all with posting history and stuff...

this is going to be fun to watch... /popcorn

[Tech614]

You know this won't work, and you know why it won't work. This would require hours of effort and more likely than not, most of the games over this time period have no way of tracking player metrics. I could show you Evolve. A game that started off promising as ever and was made by the creators of Left 4 Dead. I could show you how up until it went Free to Play just a few days ago it was dead on every single platform due to the constant stream of reskin and broken DLC, most of which would have required minimal effort to make in a texture program by an unpaid intern. I could show you how now that they are Free to Play, and removed almost all of the bloaty DLC and added it to the base game the player count is literally the highest it has ever been? Would that soothe you?

Here have a link to Steam Charts for Evolve. Be sure to look at the long term. http://steamcharts.com/app/273350#All

You know you done lost when you're using an utter bomb in Evolve as your argument.

Here let me help you out.

www.howlongtobeat.com

There you go, now go prove your average game from 2 years ago then your average game of today. Have fun kid, don't even bother replying to me unless you actually want to come with some real data.

[Paula Deen]

You know you done lost when you're using an utter bomb in Evolve as your argument.

Here let me help you out.

www.howlongtobeat.com

There you go, now go prove your average game from 2 years ago then your average game of today. Have fun kid, don't even bother replying to me unless you actually want to come with some real data.

What you linked has literally nothing to do with my argument at all. Also, according to steam charts, as of going F2P Evolve is no longer a bomb.

[Super Kami Dende]

Cool, I already use them but having more security is just a bonus.

[Tech614]

What you linked has literally nothing to do with my argument at all. Also, according to steam charts, as of going F2P Evolve is no longer a bomb.

So a site averaging out the length of games has nothing to do with you saying games 2 years ago are longer then today...

Right... I warned you to not reply unless you come with real data. You're the one looking pretty silly, keep trying if you wish.

Just to recap a site used to measure and average game lengths has NOTHING to do with judging game lengths. Paula Deen right here folks.

[Jtbrig7390]

The ones supporting G2A, you guys realize that fraud / back charge credit card purchases actually hurt the developers that you're purchasing from. From a streamer I've watched, if someone accidentally donates more than wanted and wants it back, aside from being a dick move, he will offer to transfer the money back manually instead of having the person issue a charge back. A charge back assumes fraudulent activity on the supplier side, and thus a fine is placed on them along with a credit mark. If too many are placed their bank account actually gets locked. This is a big issue for small devs and such, bigger companies have a bigger profile and better ways to take the consequences of charge backs, but as noted for small devs, yeah good luck.

The games you are buying on G2A and such sites, the devs more than likely have not gotten a sale or equal compensation from the origin of the keys. Think of what you will of the publishers, but the devs are the ones that suffers. Less funding for the devs the more likelihood that they're going to get axed or whatever and well, no more games for you. Comparing it to used games sales is a terrible comparison. Devs at least got a legitimate sale before it got put on the used market, in this case there is no legitimate sale.

When people say worse than piracy they weren't joking. Piracy never incurred a sale at any point, and so the end user is not under any illusion that they have a legitimate key. Issue with this is that the end user 'owns' a key and thus a sale will never ever happen at any point thereafter and the devs get a fine, making them pay for your entertainment instead of getting compensation that they're supposed to get.

Less revenue and in turn profit = less games being developed = your own hobby is fucked, stop it...

Well said and people need to realize that they are killing there hobby when supporting sites like g2a. They can defend the shit all they like but at the end of the day its still shit.

These people are cutting off the head to save the face and don't realize it or care.

[Vespian]

The ones supporting G2A, you guys realize that fraud / back charge credit card purchases actually hurt the developers that you're purchasing from. From a streamer I've watched, if someone accidentally donates more than wanted and wants it back, aside from being a dick move, he will offer to transfer the money back manually instead of having the person issue a charge back. A charge back assumes fraudulent activity on the supplier side, and thus a fine is placed on them along with a credit mark. If too many are placed their bank account actually gets locked. This is a big issue for small devs and such, bigger companies have a bigger profile and better ways to take the consequences of charge backs, but as noted for small devs, yeah good luck.

While this is true, this is also true:

Ummmm no. That isn't even slightly whats happening here. Little Billy gets his Credit Card stolen and Big Jim buys 5000 Keys with it then resells them on G2A. Little Billy does a charge back and then the Game Key Creator (Developer) loses money. G2A did nothing illegal. The person who stole Little Billy's credit card did.

Which is a direct result of this:

They facilitate the resale of keys period.

The point of origin is irrelevant to them and it should be irrelevant to them, since there's nothing currently available that would allow them to check the origin of these keys. Not without being legitimized by the businesses/publishers they need to verify these keys against.

The fact that they can sell these keys up to 50% cheaper is what withholds publishers from legitimizing G2A. That creates the vacuum that enables G2A to sell these keys without having to check them and the publishers unable to counter the fraud. Without the cooperation of the publishers, G2A's only possible action is to deny accountability. Because they have no alternative.

There's two ways out of this for the publishers:
> Release games more cheaply, which they can easily afford.
> Destroy G2A and all resellers, by collectively systematically disable 'stolen keys'. Within 3 months no more resales.

So let them destroy G2A, lower their prices to more competitive levels, or fix Credit Card fraud. The origin of the issue is CC Fraud, not G2A or any other resellers.

The issue is that the construction that exists to make the CC work like it does, is biting us in the ass. To fix this, we assault the ones that literally cannot do anything about it. Unless of course, direct involvement can be proved and that is not the case.

So the end result is a legal busineness, that is now forced to fix a thing that can't be fixed on their end. No one disagrees that there's an issue. We just need to grab the right component to fix it, not start a witchhunt.

[Karon]

So a site averaging out the length of games has nothing to do with you saying games 2 years ago are longer then today...

Right... I warned you to not reply unless you come with real data. You're the one looking pretty silly, keep trying if you wish.

Just to recap a site used to measure and average game lengths has NOTHING to do with judging game lengths. Paula Deen right here folks.

The moment he tried to use a Multiplayer based game to prove that games are shorter than they where 2 years ago I knew that I just shouldn't bother to reply to that clown, nothing sane could come out of it.

[Remilia]

Which is a direct result of this:

So let them destroy G2A, lower their prices to more competitive levels, or fix Credit Card fraud. The origin of the issue is CC Fraud, not G2A or any other resellers.

The issue is that the construction that exists to make the CC work like it does, is biting us in the ass. To fix this, we assault the ones that literally cannot do anything about it. Unless of course, direct involvement can be proved and that is not the case.

So the end result is a legal busineness, that is now forced to fix a thing that can't be fixed on their end. No one disagrees that there's an issue. We just need to grab the right component to fix it, not start a witchhunt.

The ones that allow and facilitate are as guilty as the ones causing the issue. In criminal law, the one that plans is as guilty as the one that executes the plan. While yes one is civil and one is criminal, the idea is the same. Without G2A or any such reseller venue, there would be less of an incentive to do this as the usual market place like Ebay and Amazon do not allow this sort of thing and are way more strict. The burden is always placed upon those that are willingly involved, not just the person who committed the fraud.

[Vespian]

The ones that allow and facilitate are as guilty as the ones causing the issue. In criminal law, the one that plans is as guilty as the one that executes the plan. While yes one is civil and one is criminal, the idea is the same. Without G2A or any such reseller venue, there would be less of an incentive to do this as the usual market place like Ebay and Amazon do not allow this sort of thing and are way more strict. The burden is always placed upon those that are willingly involved, not just the person who committed the fraud.

You would have to prove INTENT and on top of that you would have to prove that the MAJORITY of sales is illegally obtained. Good luck Remilia. Focus on things that are obviously wrong, like the CC fraud, instead of targeting a business that will just replace itself as soon as you take it down. This is the story of the Hydra, except in this case the heads aren't even tied to the body.

You're ghost hunting, not just witch hunting.