Why can't the father choose not to pay the child support if he wants abortion?

[Granyala]

Ok, so you are saying we should ban all abortions, as having sex is clearly telling each other that you want to have a baby with them.

Quit the hyperbole or learn English.
It's not even remotely what I stated.

[May90]

I think most men will agree with having to sign something like a contract after the fact to ensure their wishes. Its not half as bad as the "rights" that they have now.
I do think on how the system will work, and it is not half as exploitable as the system we have in place atm. The only difference is that the system won't be exploited by females in the same way that they can now. There is really nothing for the males to exploit here, as everything is still solely in the hands of females. They still have all the "power" , the only difference is that they can't force their will on others.

And of course im leaving a child that is not wanted out off the equation, because, you know, it is not wanted. And as i've said before, if you want to do "what is best for the child" then give it up for adoption at birth. Best chance for the kid all round, those parents get checked if they can provide and are loving. Most of the time they will come in a home that can't conceive, and they live happily ever after.

A contract signed after the fact of pregnancy is not a solution, since that's exactly when the conflict of interests might appear. What would work is the mandatory contract signed before the pregnancy occurred, on what the course of action of each person is in case of pregnancy. The problems with this are:
1. It is still not clear what to do if such a contract wasn't signed.
2. Same problem as with mandatory written sexual consent: compromises trust in the relationship, makes it less intimate, etc.

The current system can't be exploited to the benefit of one of the sides, since, in case of the childbirth, both sides are responsible for raising it. In your system, there is a case in which men can opt out and women can't, hence leaving a lot of room for exploiting it.

---

Really, like I've said many times, the problem is non-existent for responsible individuals, who take these things seriously. These matters are only relevant to immature people who play around and have fun, not thinking about the consequences. It is not nearly as big of a deal as people make it look; just accept that sex = possibility of children, and be ready to face this possibility if you go for it. Not a rocket science.

[Deleted]

No contraceptive grants 100% safety.
As a man you need to be aware of that before having sex.
-> There is a risk
-> There may be a change of behavior during her pregnancy making her keep the baby.
-> I may have to pay child support

If you are okay with this -> proceed to make love to her.
If not -> abort the romantic encounter here and now.
@MeHMeH claims that males don't get to make the decision. What he doesn't realize is that males make the same decision only at a different point in time. Us men, we need to make this decision and weigh the consequences BEFORE making love. The woman gets the "luxury" of getting to make that decision AFTER a pregnancy happened.

Yeah I agree that it isn't exactly fair that the women gets to make that decision twice and has the opportunity to change her mind after giving in to lust. But life is hardly ever fair in these matters.

No, having sex isn't the same as consenting to parenthood.

[Granyala]

No, having sex isn't the same as consenting to parenthood.

It is the same as consenting to POSSIBLE parenthood, yes.

Sex, while fun, is ultimately a biological function of our bodies designed to ensure procreation of our species.
Apply/use said function and be aware of the consequences.

Yes, modern medicine gave us the possibility of aborting pregnancies and various contraceptives to minimize the "risk" of pregnancy/abort pregnancy but there is always a remaining risk that a child is the result of your romantic encounter.

This is also why I would not whore around lightly and only make love to a person I intend to be with for a long time.

[Krille]

Short answer, sexism.

Yea we're so discriminated Us poor men. Boys need to grow up and learn that if you have sex with some girl there's a chance you make her pregnant. End of story.

[Bodakane]

No contraceptive grants 100% safety.
As a man you need to be aware of that before having sex.
-> There is a risk
-> There may be a change of behavior during her pregnancy making her keep the baby.
-> I may have to pay child support

If you are okay with this -> proceed to make love to her.
If not -> abort the romantic encounter here and now.
@MeHMeH claims that males don't get to make the decision. What he doesn't realize is that males make the same decision only at a different point in time. Us men, we need to make this decision and weigh the consequences BEFORE making love. The woman gets the "luxury" of getting to make that decision AFTER a pregnancy happened.

Yeah I agree that it isn't exactly fair that the women gets to make that decision twice and has the opportunity to change her mind after giving in to lust. But life is hardly ever fair in these matters.

Its perfectly fair a woman makes the decisions she does, because she and she alone has the hell of carrying the pregnancy to term or the hell of getting an abortion. She generally will also be the one taking care of the child for its life in this situation. All the guy has to do is pay 1/2, but so does she.

So to recap:

If a woman gets pregnant...

The woman:
- either has to get a horrible surgery for an abortion OR go through hell for 9 months
- raise the kid
- pay 1/2

The man:
- pay 1/2


Seems to me the level of effort required is commiserate with amount of responsibility. The guy gets off lucky.

[Granyala]

Really, like I've said many times, the problem is non-existent for responsible individuals, who take these things seriously. These matters are only relevant to immature people who play around and have fun, not thinking about the consequences. It is not nearly as big of a deal as people make it look; just accept that sex = possibility of children, and be ready to face this possibility if you go for it. Not a rocket science.

This is pretty much the core of the matter. People wanting to whore around w/o the fear of consequences. Male and female alike.

[May90]

No, having sex isn't the same as consenting to parenthood.

And this mentality is the source of all these problems.

[Bodakane]

Yeah, having sex with no long-term consequences is a women's only privilege.
How dare guys want those same rights?

Who the fuck said that? Jesus what is wrong with you people?

[Granyala]

Seems to me the level of effort required is commiserate with amount of responsibility. The guy gets off lucky.

Absolutely, if you ask me.
After all it's just money. The state even accounts for the males income and doesn't force illogical sums onto the father.

[Deleted]

A contract signed after the fact of pregnancy is not a solution, since that's exactly when the conflict of interests might appear. What would work is the mandatory contract signed before the pregnancy occurred, on what the course of action of each person is in case of pregnancy. The problems with this are:
1. It is still not clear what to do if such a contract wasn't signed.
2. Same problem as with mandatory written sexual consent: compromises trust in the relationship, makes it less intimate, etc.

The current system can't be exploited to the benefit of one of the sides, since, in case of the childbirth, both sides are responsible for raising it. In your system, there is a case in which men can opt out and women can't, hence leaving a lot of room for exploiting it.

---

Really, like I've said many times, the problem is non-existent for responsible individuals, who take these things seriously. These matters are only relevant to immature people who play around and have fun, not thinking about the consequences. It is not nearly as big of a deal as people make it look; just accept that sex = possibility of children, and be ready to face this possibility if you go for it. Not a rocket science.

Of course it should be done after the fact, because then is when the problem occurs. There isn't any conflict of interest that i can see here, no one here has any interest here in delaying anything. It even promotes good incentives like telling the father that he is becoming a father, witch in turn helps out on the baby hatch problem. The father would want to know that he is becoming a father, the mother would want to tell the father as soon as possible so she can decide what she wants to do. I see no problem here.

This problem has nothing to do with "responsible individuals", as some posters have shown here that it is perfectly okay to call males who didn't want to become a parent "deadbeats" but females who didn't want it are seen as "responsible". This is about the right to be able to plan your own offspring, to start a family with whom you want to.

- - - Updated - - -

And this mentality is the source of all these problems.

That is saying that abortions are not needed, she should just be responsible for having sex.

[May90]

Absolutely, if you ask me.
After all it's just money. The state even accounts for the males income and doesn't force illogical sums onto the father.

To be fair, sometimes it does. I've read stories of people getting $200k a year and having to pay $100k for child support for 10+ years. Sounds pretty ridiculous, and the mother and the child definitely don't need THAT much to be well off.

These are the problems of execution though, not of the system itself.

[Deleted]

It is the same as consenting to POSSIBLE parenthood, yes.

Sex, while fun, is ultimately a biological function of our bodies designed to ensure procreation of our species.
Apply/use said function and be aware of the consequences.

Yes, modern medicine gave us the possibility of aborting pregnancies and various contraceptives to minimize the "risk" of pregnancy/abort pregnancy but there is always a remaining risk that a child is the result of your romantic encounter.

This is also why I would not whore around lightly and only make love to a person I intend to be with for a long time.

Not its not, not for females. Only males are held to this standard.

[Krille]

To be fair, sometimes it does. I've read stories of people getting $200k a year and having to pay $100k for child support for 10+ years. Sounds pretty ridiculous, and the mother and the child definitely don't need THAT much to be well off.

These are the problems of execution though, not of the system itself.

We pay about 250 dollars a month until the kid is 18.

- - - Updated - - -

Not its not, not for females. Only males are held to this standard.

Yes because females usually wants a baby in their belly And they can definately stop a man from cuming inside her, anytime. It's not like it's a fucking gamble from the start for them, at all.

[Granyala]

Disclaimer: Only for men.

Not its not, not for females. Only males are held to this standard.

Unless you are willing to deal with physiological and psychological consequences of an abortion: yes.
If you don't, the exact same rule applies to females.

[Bodakane]

Many people in this thread?
Because apparently if you don't want a child as a man you shouldn't have sex.. ever.

Nobody said that and that is not what they are saying. Just fucking stop. You sound like a child that didn't get what that they wanted for Xmas.

Its simple, take precautions as a man to not knock a woman up and know if you do have a sex and even with the proper precautions, it may still VERY RARELY happen anyway. There are inherent risks with EVERYTHING in life. What you don't get to do, is participate in the act of reproduction and have 0 responsibility if reproduction happens.

Grow the fuck up.

[Granyala]

To be fair, sometimes it does. I've read stories of people getting $200k a year and having to pay $100k for child support for 10+ years. Sounds pretty ridiculous, and the mother and the child definitely don't need THAT much to be well off.

These are the problems of execution though, not of the system itself.

That doesn't make sense at all. Why would a male have to pay half his salary as child support?

I believe in Germany it's some fixed number 250 bucks sounds about right because that is the amount of money my mother got because my father never paid child support.

[Deleted]

We pay about 250 dollars a month until the kid is 18.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes because females usually wants a baby in their belly And they can definately stop a man from cuming inside her, anytime. It's not like it's a fucking gamble from the start for them, at all.

They do not have to have a baby if they do not want to, this can't be said for men. So no, its not a gamble when you can make sure that the end result is "not a baby".

[May90]

Of course it should be done after the fact, because then is when the problem occurs. There isn't any conflict of interest that i can see here, no one here has any interest here in delaying anything. It even promotes good incentives like telling the father that he is becoming a father, witch in turn helps out on the baby hatch problem. The father would want to know that he is becoming a father, the mother would want to tell the father as soon as possible so she can decide what she wants to do. I see no problem here.

This problem has nothing to do with "responsible individuals", as some posters have shown here that it is perfectly okay to call males who didn't want to become a parent "deadbeats" but females who didn't want it are seen as "responsible". This is about the right to be able to plan your own offspring, to start a family with whom you want to.

This isn't how contracts work. You sign a contract when you want to make sure that both sides respect their promises. If no promises have been given before pregnancy, then it is a bit late to work them out when it happened, don't you think? What if the sides don't agree on the terms of contract, like the woman wants to give birth to the child and raise it together, while the man doesn't want the child? It will go nowhere.

If you have a partner who you trust and want to raise children with, and they want the same, then there is no problem. If you have different desires, one of you being irresponsible and seeking the easy way out - then the other one shouldn't suffer for that and have to take the entire burden on themselves.

That is saying that abortions are not needed, she should just be responsible for having sex.

No, that is saying that her choosing to not go for abortion is something both partners should be willing to accept.

That doesn't make sense at all. Why would a male have to pay half his salary as child support?

I believe in Germany it's some fixed number 250 bucks sounds about right because that is the amount of money my mother got because my father never paid child support.

I don't know. As I understand, in the US these numbers are up to the judge to establish. And the judges can be biased sometimes.

[Deleted]

Unless you are willing to deal with physiological and psychological consequences of an abortion: yes.
If you don't, the exact same rule applies to females.

That is, if there are consequences to it, not everyone has these same problems with it.