No capaiblity to determine how a spec will be played until we max our artifacts.

[Alcsaar]

I've been struggling for the past few months trying to decide which class I'm going to take as my main in Legion, and I've come to realize that this is more important in Legion than in any other expansion ever. Now if we reroll from one class to another, we are not only behind in spec and levels, but also in artifact power, which is going to be a huge deal.

Artifact traits are incredibly powerful, will take a while to unlock, and can easily change how a class or spec is played once obtained. Imagine you play a class that you're enjoying only to max out your artifact traits and realize that now its nothing like what it initially was. You have no capability before then to determine how the spec is going to feel at max power level.

With out the capability to thoroughly test how a class or spec feels with a maxed out artifact, its going to cause a lot of issues for people who get unlucky and end up not liking, or even hating, how it plays out. I've always been an altoholic, but this honestly scares me more than any other expansion. I'm not even sure that I'll be able to bother trying to raise up another artifact if the first one doesn't end up being enjoyable. It could easily mean that I quit playing the expansion months before I normally would. Time and time again we have seen that these sorts of items that take so much time to unlock only screw over people who want a change of pace. The legendary rings and cloaks are two recent examples of this, and yet we're once again going down this path.

Catch up mechanics are meaningless if they don't actually CATCH YOU UP. Being one or two stages behind everyone else is NOT being "caught up".

I'm not going to beat a dead horse about what this means for spec swapping, as thats already been hit on time and time again already.

My main concern is, how am I supposed to get any idea how my chosen spec is going to play at late game? Am I really expected to invest months into a character only then to come to the conclusion that it ends up being horrible? (I'm looking at you, retribution spec).

Perhaps they're expecting it to increase "replayability" and maintain subscribers if I have to go through all of this for my alts, but that isn't true at all, I'm just going to end up losing interest faster.

[Blur4stuff]

the only 100% working solution is to not min-max so hard

even if you picked the #1 dps spec it could later get nerfed or something else buffed and you'd be right back where you started

[Soisoisoi]

You can always respec it. It'll cost you, but.. you can. And you'll also be just as far in the new spec's artifact as you were in the last AFAIK.

Ignore that; I'm an idiot and somehow mixed myself up.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Is this very different from not knowing how well your spec will do until you have Tier/BiS gear?

[procne]

Why not just pick whichever class is most fun to play?

[MoanaLisa]

Is this very different from not knowing how well your spec will do until you have Tier/BiS gear?

No, not really.

[Alcsaar]

Why not just pick whichever class is most fun to play?

This...is exactly the problem I'm having. I will have no idea how fun the spec is until I'm playing it as its MEANT to be played (with max artifact power). Its very possible for a spec to feel different/worse when you unlock those traits.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this very different from not knowing how well your spec will do until you have Tier/BiS gear?

Maybe works if you're the same class, although I've heard you WONT be at the same progression. Regardless, this does not help AT ALL if you're playing a hybrid with 3 different roles as specs. I play a ret paladin - I'm not going to play prot or holy just because I don't like ret at max artifact. I'm going to want to play a different DPS class.

Edit* Guy under me clarified that this doesn't work as you believe it does.

[Jellospally]

You can always respec it. It'll cost you, but.. you can. And you'll also be just as far in the new spec's artifact as you were in the last AFAIK.

Respecing only allows you to change the traits inside that specific artifact. Each one per spec per class has its own AP you have to put into it and all AP gets used on current equipped and isn't usable on others.

[JonnyBeoulve]

This...is exactly the problem I'm having. I will have no idea how fun the spec is until I'm playing it as its MEANT to be played (with max artifact power). Its very possible for a spec to feel different/worse when you unlock those traits.

- - - Updated - - -



Maybe works if you're the same class, although I've heard you WONT be at the same progression. Regardless, this does not help AT ALL if you're playing a hybrid with 3 different roles as specs. I play a ret paladin - I'm not going to play prot or holy just because I don't like ret at max artifact. I'm going to want to play a different DPS class.

Edit* Guy under me clarified that this doesn't work as you believe it does.

This is untrue. Pick what you like now and your rotation will remain the same. The only difference will be the effectiveness of abilities.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Maybe works if you're the same class, although I've heard you WONT be at the same progression. Regardless, this does not help AT ALL if you're playing a hybrid with 3 different roles as specs. I play a ret paladin - I'm not going to play prot or holy just because I don't like ret at max artifact. I'm going to want to play a different DPS class.

Edit* Guy under me clarified that this doesn't work as you believe it does.

I guess I'm not quite getting the mindset.
You want to know what the *best* spec will be for your preferred role. Historically this tends to change - a lot - between tiers, hotfixes, patches and in this case, expansions. There's pretty much no way of knowing which class really is "best" until raids begin and we can take a look at warcraftlogs or some place that shows us what's highest represented, who does what numbers, etc.
Then there's simcrafters plugging in their formulas based on BiS gear, random ilvl upgrades, legendaries and AP.

You want all the answers before making a choice based on previously obtained experience/analysis, as opposed to making your own choice based on preference and I guess faith, then making that fateful journey of discovery. Am I correct?
If so, there's still a value in your style of gameplay. That's okay. But again, waiting to test a class with a max level artifact isn't much different from waiting to test with optimal gear, as was done in previous expansions. So there's one more layer to peel under, but what makes this special?

[Alcsaar]

I guess I'm not quite getting the mindset.
You want to know what the *best* spec will be for your preferred role. Historically this tends to change - a lot - between tiers, hotfixes, patches and in this case, expansions. There's pretty much no way of knowing which class really is "best" until raids begin and we can take a look at warcraftlogs or some place that shows us what's highest represented, who does what numbers, etc.
Then there's simcrafters plugging in their formulas based on BiS gear, random ilvl upgrades, legendaries and AP.

You want all the answers before making a choice based on previously obtained experience/analysis, as opposed to making your own choice based on preference and I guess faith, then making that fateful journey of discovery. Am I correct?
If so, there's still a value in your style of gameplay. That's okay. But again, waiting to test a class with a max level artifact isn't much different from waiting to test with optimal gear, as was done in previous expansions. So there's one more layer to peel under, but what makes this special?

I don't really care which spec is the best so long as I'm competitive (with in 1-3%). I just want to find a spec that I actually ENJOY playing again, and every time they add something like this that impacts end-game how the class is played, it means theres a chance that the playstyle changes in a way that I don't find enjoyable any longer. Set bonuses did the same thing, but set bonuses changed every tier. Artifact powers will stay the entire expansion presumably, so once I have it I'm stuck with it, theres no "waiting until next tier" to hope for a rotation/playstyle that I enjoy to return.

[Soisoisoi]

Respecing only allows you to change the traits inside that specific artifact. Each one per spec per class has its own AP you have to put into it and all AP gets used on current equipped and isn't usable on others.

You are absolutely right. I don't even know why I was thinking that. I'm even confused myself how I thought that.

[Raiju]

This is untrue. Pick what you like now and your rotation will remain the same. The only difference will be the effectiveness of abilities.

While your rotation may be the same your general class strengths/weaknesses may not, f.ex. frost dk's golden trait Sindragosa's Fury is a complete gamechanger.

[stevenho]

You don't need to max an artifact to know how the class plays, since 90% of the traits are passive.
/thread

[middling]

You don't need to max an artifact to know how the class plays, since 90% of the traits are passive.
/thread

Exactly, what abilities or traits are you worried about having a huge impact on your playstyle? Give us 2-3 examples.

From what I see, most of the traits say things like 3% more this, or 4% more that. Doesn't change what buttons you will press.

A frost mage won't act like a healer for example, they will still push 3-4 main buttons and then 3-4 Cooldown buttons and maybe jump a round a bit.

A holy priest won't act like a tank, they will still push 3-4 buttons to heal people then 3-4 cooldown buttons then maybe 1-2 DPS buttons

See the trend. Here's an experiment, login with 2-3 different characters that have your main buttons aligned on keys 1-5.. Then just attack something and close your eyes or only watch your keyboard, you will press the same buttons over and over again. There will be very little change. I can play almost all of my 9 level 100 chars with only using 5-6 total buttons.

If you haven't noticed, WoW has become so homogenized it's actually very boring between classes. All the balancing has made all the classes feel very much the same.

I choose to play certain characters based mostly on non combat abilities. For example druids get a class order port, new artifact forms, instant cast flight form, etc. I don't choose to play druid strictly because bear tank is SOOO much more fun that warrior tank. They are both just button mashing. You don't even need to really manage threat anymore, just mash mash mash.

[Shelly]

There's only a single artifact thing that truly changes how you play and that's your artifact ability which is unlocked right away.

Everything outside of that can refine things for you a bit, but it's not going to change how you play all that much any more than the Draenor leveling perks did.

Which is what the artifact weapon is, leveling perks plus a few more goodies added in to give you a stronger feeling of progression. Also you get a feeling of satisfaction by choosing which route you'll take on your artifact weapon, which is a lot fancier than just gaining a random bonus every other level or so on the way from 90 to 100.

[Belaide]

While your rotation may be the same your general class strengths/weaknesses may not, f.ex. frost dk's golden trait Sindragosa's Fury is a complete gamechanger.

Actually that's not true. At least for MM hunter, the very first artifact upgrade you get is a castable, Wind Arrows. Not sure if there are others as I've only got to the first one on Beta. So the artifact changes the rotation as it adds new abilities.

[Raiju]

Actually that's not true. At least for MM hunter, the very first artifact upgrade you get is a castable, Wind Arrows. Not sure if there are others as I've only got to the first one on Beta. So the artifact changes the rotation as it adds new abilities.

I was expecting an exception - for the most part artifacts don't interact too heavily with rotation (directly) as their buttons are 45 seconds or longer cooldown, generally considered 'cooldowns'. Marksman is only 20 seconds which is more rotational, although it is the initial button so seeing videos or streams of any MM. My point was more to do with later traits where it's noticeably more difficult to find gameplay videos and even if one does have beta is not as quick to test.
@Shelly not all artifact abilities are unlocked straight away

[FalcFalcFalc]

Artifact knowledge speeds up the process of progressing through your off spec's artifact. At around AK level 10, you can get about 6 full traits with one AP item from a world quest (within the first 12 traits). Also, further along down the expansion they intend to increase the speed that you acquire AK which means that you will max AK quicker and get your artifact up to speed faster. If you re-roll a different class or a different spec, catch up is not that bad at all.

[Deleted]

Actually that's not true. At least for MM hunter, the very first artifact upgrade you get is a castable, Wind Arrows. Not sure if there are others as I've only got to the first one on Beta. So the artifact changes the rotation as it adds new abilities.

every artifact starts with adding a new ability.