[7.2] Legion Shadow Priest Guide and Discussion

[Djriff]

I mean, the damage per cast is still the same unless I missed something. The talent is clearly undertuned, but I don't understand how mind spike promotes holding mindblast outside of niche burst AoE situations (animals spawning on beastlord darmac for example) as the DPC is still the same at one stack as it is at ten stacks.

The niche burst AoE situation is the only reason you would take it over flay. StM and LotV are just too good in comparison.

[britishbubba]

The niche burst AoE situation is the only reason you would take it over flay. StM and LotV are just too good in comparison.

Is LoTV really "good" by comparison? It's more of a quality of life spell rather than a dps increase. I'd be surprised if LoTV was actually a net positive compared to MS due to how little it really will gain you... Not that MS is really gaining you that much either.

[Djriff]

Is LoTV really "good" by comparison? It's more of a quality of life spell rather than a dps increase. I'd be surprised if LoTV was actually a net positive compared to MS due to how little it really will gain you... Not that MS is really gaining you that much either.

Outside of a raid environment you'll take LotV. For raids most likely StM, even if you don't use it.

[britishbubba]

Outside of a raid environment you'll take LotV. For raids most likely StM, even if you don't use it.

I'm aware, you're not answering the question though. LoTV and MS are both at best, minor dps increases. LoTV is going to save you what, 10-20 insanity per void form in a best case scenario by preventing over capping?

My point in my first post a few back was MS only promotes holding MB in very specific niche scenarios. Scenarios that are caused by the NEED to have adds die quickly in which case the loss of a few MB might actually be worth it in the grand scheme of the fight in order to get that extra damage out from MS by having ten stacks going into the adds spawning. In single or two target cleave you're not promoted to hold MB which was the point of my original response to you. In two target you can stack MS on one target and dump MB into the other if you really want to explode MS at max stacks... Pointless though since the DPC is going to be the exact same at ten stacks as it is at one stack in that scenario.

So that brings me back to this:

As you get further into Voidform, the delay between Mind Blasts gets fewer and fewer. Add into the fact that you'll at most get 2 stacks at 10+ stacks of Voidform just makes the talent dead in the water.

That's not what makes the talent dead in the water. In a single target situation you'd gain literally nothing by holding MB to detonate at higher stacks. All you'd do is lose MB damage in exchange for ZERO gain in MS damage. In AoE situations where you NEED the damage, it's a net loss for the overall damage of the fight, but it's you're making the decision to take MS for that fight and stack it up so that adds do die fast, it's likely a net gain even though your parse will be slightly lower.

The talents "dead" for the same reason that LoTV is incredibly lackluster outside of dungeons. LoTV and MS at best give an incredibly minor dps increase, while sharing a talent tier with the single strongest DPS cooldown in the game.

[Vanisara]

Just like Void Entropy, right ?

Should have phrased myself differently. I meant that 7.1 would be the soonest I would expect to possibly see a significant mechanics change for Mind Spike. That said, I would not be surprised if it just sat there with minor damage tuning the entire expansion just like Void Entropy did to your point.

You know if the Dev's really wanted to troll us they would have Void Entropy take Mind Spikes place and have it cost Insanity...

If it didn't replace Mind Flay though, did decent damage, and actually did last a full minute (as originally designed) it could be an interesting addition especially if it was a "low insanity cost" ability. Hmm...

Now I kind of want to lobby for it just to see the Dev's reaction. "Really, you want that back??????"

[davesignal]

Void Entropy was a cool and good spell. The problem is that COP was overpowered, poorly thought out shit and AS played into the current SP meta of 'fuck your actual roots and heritage, fuck spinning plates, your only job is to get as much secondary resources as possible'.

They were both garbage that turned the spec into spammy shit, albeit in very different ways. Void Entropy reminded you that you were once a fucking dot class and your job was to manage a variety of dots, not spam them out on everything to get Old God Juice.

You know what would be cool? Axe Mind Spike, replace it with Void Entropy. Void Entropy replaces Void Eruption/Voidform. It's a gigantic fuck-off DOT, does absolutely massive damage. It drains your insanity while active. You can cast it on a target multiple times; it applies a new version every time, and the insanity drain goes up accordingly. You can dump a ton of them onto a target at once to bleed off your insanity quickly during a burst phase, or you can have a lower number to maintain a slower trickle of constant damage that doesn't fall off, maybe on multiple targets.

Now the spec can handle people who want to go all-in on DOTs and not get RSI, or people who want to button-mash their Void Bolt button in deep StM, or somewhere in the middle with Legacy.

[Deleted]

All but 3 of our talents are passive though.

What? That's not true.

Shadow Word: Void - Active
Mind Bomb: Active
Auspicious Spirits: Passive, but "activates" new gameplay mechanics through its passive. So is it -really- that passive?
Shadowy Insight: Proc
Power Infusion: Active
Shadow Crash: Active
Mindbender: Active
Mind Spike: Active
Surrender to Madness: Active

Not trying to debunk your comment. Also not saying that all of these spells are "viable," but saying we only have 3 talents that are active is a false statement - especially when the entire level 90 Row alone is active.

[davesignal]

Yes, AS is passive. That is an incredibly flimsy justification. Throwing dots on everything isn't a new gameplay mechanic, it just rewards you for it more.

[Deleted]

Void Entropy was a cool and good spell. The problem is that COP was overpowered, poorly thought out shit and AS played into the current SP meta of 'fuck your actual roots and heritage, fuck spinning plates, your only job is to get as much secondary resources as possible'.

They were both garbage that turned the spec into spammy shit, albeit in very different ways. Void Entropy reminded you that you were once a fucking dot class and your job was to manage a variety of dots, not spam them out on everything to get Old God Juice.

You know what would be cool? Axe Mind Spike, replace it with Void Entropy. Void Entropy replaces Void Eruption/Voidform. It's a gigantic fuck-off DOT, does absolutely massive damage. It drains your insanity while active. You can cast it on a target multiple times; it applies a new version every time, and the insanity drain goes up accordingly. You can dump a ton of them onto a target at once to bleed off your insanity quickly during a burst phase, or you can have a lower number to maintain a slower trickle of constant damage that doesn't fall off, maybe on multiple targets.

Now the spec can handle people who want to go all-in on DOTs and not get RSI, or people who want to button-mash their Void Bolt button in deep StM, or somewhere in the middle with Legacy.

This exactly. I actually REALLY enjoyed Void Entropy (on a Target Dummy cuz that's the only time that crap was ever used lol), and I REALLY hoped they'd continue on with it in Legion! Mind Spike is so unbelievably NOT fitting for our current class fantasy it legitimately saddens me.

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Yes, AS is passive. That is an incredibly flimsy justification. Throwing dots on everything isn't a new gameplay mechanic, it just rewards you for it more.

It is absolutely passive, which is why I made sure I stated that first off. it still adds interesting gameplay in my opinion, whether or not people consider this "throwing more dots on everything" or not is subject to personal opinion I believe.

[Kaesebrezen]

Not trying to debunk your comment. Also not saying that all of these spells are "viable," but saying we only have 3 talents that are active is a false statement - especially when the entire level 90 Row alone is active.

"Active" can be more than just a button to press.

Practically no talent in our tree changes the priority of how we press our buttons. In the best case it changes we how often we press a button, just that "how often" usually means "less Mind Flay".

[Vanisara]

It's kind of funny, Marksmen Hunters actually have a slew of "active (press)" talents that TC is saying to avoid because it takes away from the resources needed to affect their highest DPS rotation. We have a slew of "passive" talents due to our tight rotational requirements and not needing further "complications".

Just an observation.

[l33t]

Auspicious Spirits: Passive, but "activates" new gameplay mechanics through its passive. So is it -really- that passive?

Yes, it is absolutely a passive. And it does not activate any new mechanics, since you have your spirits running without AS as well. Just like mindbender upgrades shadowfiend, AS upgrades basic spirits - you just get additional resources. (at the cost of having to play the las vegas rng casino plus gearing additional secondary stat).

[Jullyx]

What about dotting low priority targets to increase damage on priority target?
Also, there are for sure some slight changes you can do to rotation to keep void form a second or two longer depending on how many apperitions are in the air.

[Djriff]

I'm aware, you're not answering the question though. LoTV and MS are both at best, minor dps increases. LoTV is going to save you what, 10-20 insanity per void form in a best case scenario by preventing over capping?

It's not about the insanity per Voidform, but more the quickness you can get back into it between mobs. It's a great trash talent where you don't have a sustained target. That aside StM is superior whne you do have a sustained target, even if you don't pop it.

My point in my first post a few back was MS only promotes holding MB in very specific niche scenarios. Scenarios that are caused by the NEED to have adds die quickly in which case the loss of a few MB might actually be worth it in the grand scheme of the fight in order to get that extra damage out from MS by having ten stacks going into the adds spawning. In single or two target cleave you're not promoted to hold MB which was the point of my original response to you. In two target you can stack MS on one target and dump MB into the other if you really want to explode MS at max stacks... Pointless though since the DPC is going to be the exact same at ten stacks as it is at one stack in that scenario.

That's a fair statement, but why would you as a shadow priest do that when almost any other DPS class can do it baseline and better than you can. You're inventing a scenario that will never realistically happen. I'm not saying you have to hold Mind blast, but if you're not using the burst of Mind Spike, then why are you taking the talent in the first place?

So that brings me back to this:

As you get further into Voidform, the delay between Mind Blasts gets fewer and fewer. Add into the fact that you'll at most get 2 stacks at 10+ stacks of Voidform just makes the talent dead in the water.

That's not what makes the talent dead in the water. In a single target situation you'd gain literally nothing by holding MB to detonate at higher stacks. All you'd do is lose MB damage in exchange for ZERO gain in MS damage. In AoE situations where you NEED the damage, it's a net loss for the overall damage of the fight, but it's you're making the decision to take MS for that fight and stack it up so that adds do die fast, it's likely a net gain even though your parse will be slightly lower.

The talents "dead" for the same reason that LoTV is incredibly lackluster outside of dungeons. LoTV and MS at best give an incredibly minor dps increase, while sharing a talent tier with the single strongest DPS cooldown in the game.

That's exactly what makes the talent dead. It's not about holding MB, it's that you won't have time to get MS off without delaying VB or MB, it's just simply not worth doing.

Not trying to debunk your comment. Also not saying that all of these spells are "viable," but saying we only have 3 talents that are active is a false statement - especially when the entire level 90 Row alone is active.

I agree with not everything being Viable, but like others have said none of these talents change the way we play the class nor do they alter our rotation.

Ok, so 4 are active, I forgot about Power Infusion in my count.

Shadow Word: Void - Active - Yes
Mind Bomb: Active - Sort of, really just changes out our Psychic Scream, so sort of counts as a passive.
Auspicious Spirits: Passive, but "activates" new gameplay mechanics through its passive. So is it -really- that passive? - Yes it's a passive.
Shadowy Insight: Proc - Proc or not, still a passive
Power Infusion: Active - Yes
Shadow Crash: Active - Yes
Mindbender: Active - Changes Shadowfiend, so I would say it's more of a passive.
Mind Spike: Active - Changes Mind Flay, so I would say it's more of a passive.
Surrender to Madness: Active - Yes

[RsinRC]

They should let us refund Mana to our Healers, like back in BC. Then there's no discussing whether or not we're worth it in Raids!

On another note, I've uploaded a video discussing Shadow Priest game tips, my two essential WeakAura strings, and my Mouse-Over Macros. I also talk about some of the thought-process that makes our class and spec really interesting in my opinion, especially in voidform! Please leave some feedback if you find the time - and enjoy!

I'm glad there are people out there that love it that detailed with the addons and information. I personally enjoy and try and master my priest by playing, a lot. Feels more natural and I'll learn instinctively rather than looking to see how much time I have left, etc. Keep up the guides though was well versed and produced.

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In pvp, right now I'm enjoying these talents

15 - ToF
30 - B&S for bg's and masochism for duels and some arena
45 - Psychic Voice against casters and Mind bomb (which is a 4s aoe stun not 2s like it says on the tooltip, on a 30s cd) is becoming quite reliable on everything else.
60 - Void Lord. The extra casting speed at all times (and extra MF damage from more haste), personally, makes the class much more fluid and gives our casts a greater chance to finish for clutch moments in early VF. I tried Reaper of Souls for the greater half of my ptr and prepatch life and 2 SWDs @ 35% health I found that It doesn't get me a kill as often as I'd like and end up having to fight longer. At 20% health, 1 SWD almost kills the target and the 2nd is overkill for the majority of the time
75 - San'layn is far more useful to me than the other 2 talents in this tier. Shadowy Insight does provide good burst potential, but with San'layn just 2 VT's up makes my shadow priest much more tanky, a 3rd VT up and you'd only die if they burst on you. The extra healing this talent provides on VE is just a plus to a spell that seems lacking (but every bit of healing helps). AS has no use in pvp especially with our low crit pvp templates. San'layn provides much more overall damage (and healing) especially in multi target fights.
90 - Shadow Crash is my personal favorite. 30s cd, I tend to use it when the target is at 40%-45% health to effectively push their health down to 20% where I follow it up with SWD or I use it on medium health groups in bg's. Shadow Crash also pairs great with a VE. In arena's, Mind Bender provides you with insanity at start and during burst (and making VF last longer on a 1 min cd).
100 - LotV. Everything else is suicide. Almost literally.

With just San'layn, especially paired with Masochism, you will outlast any class as long as you play it right.

[Kharum]

What is our opening rotation? Should I start with DoTs, Mind Blast or Mindbender?

[Ryeshot]

MB > VT > SWP. Mindbender is used best in VF, but if you got the t18 2pc you can just use it on cooldown.

[N1gh7h4wk]

T18 2pc opener is MB bender DoT, although i prefer for StM Burst opener with full insanity: Precast VT>SWP>VEr>Bender>MB>VB
The ring is usually used shortly after pull so your first action into the ring is VEr. Helps getting more VB and VF stacks into the whole fight and delays our 2nd MB only by 1 GCD.
Since all tanks desperately wait to pull the boss at 0 insanity level, most likely without Lingering Insanity up, this becomes unperformable in most fights.

[l33t]

Since all tanks desperately wait to pull the boss at 0 insanity level

I admit, I laughed... through tears

Why do they do this, I wonder.

[Isentropy]

MB > VT > SWP. Mindbender is used best in VF, but if you got the t18 2pc you can just use it on cooldown.

What terrible advice for the opener... there's no reason to delay Mindbender on the pull. It's important to get into Voidform as quickly as possible on the pull and to get off Void Torrent as soon as possible. You don't delay 1 minute cooldowns like you're suggesting, it's just not worth it at all outside of some very specific cases. When do you even suggest using Mindbender, or rather, how long do you suggest on delaying it? Because using it as soon as you get into Voidform is pointless as it doesn't benefit from the Voidform damage bonus, and you're just wasting Mindbender's Insanity generation for at least the first 10 seconds of Voidform. So do you suggest holding it until you stop being able to keep up with the drain, around 15 stacks perhaps? So you're delaying Mindbender by about half a minute then (inluding initial Insanity ramp up) just so you think you've done something cool with your 1 minute cooldown. How does this even remotely sound worth it? If you do that for an entire fight (delaying in general, not necessarily for the same amount of time), you're just wasting multiple uses of Mindbender (and probably Void Torrents too).

Just use Mindbender (and Void Torrent once we get it) on cooldown. Don't try and be clever, they're 1 minute cooldowns.