[7.2] Legion Shadow Priest Guide and Discussion

[Isentropy]

Honestly, I think they let it slide because the content was cleared ridiculously fast and they didn't want players to feel like they got punished by blizzards own mistake of not listening to the community.

They've come out and said that shadow not being historically OP was part of the reason why they didn't end up going through with the nerfs. What you said was part of it as well, but they still could've done some less extreme number tweaks back then instead of just reverting all of the relevant nerfs. This is our little moment of glory, and Blizzard allowed it to be that way until they can do some mechanical changes too.

[Djriff]

They've come out and said that shadow not being historically OP was part of the reason why they didn't end up going through with the nerfs. What you said was part of it as well, but they still could've done some less extreme number tweaks back then instead of just reverting all of the relevant nerfs. This is our little moment of glory, and Blizzard allowed it to be that way until they can do some mechanical changes too.

Yeah tbh it sounds like a copout on blizzards behalf. Like they didn't listen to a single iota of feedback the entire time on alpha/beta which was very annoying. I mentioned the shadowform thing too, hopefully we get a fix for that soon.

[doofy]

perfect, ty


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i really hope spriest will not get nerfed asap to the void even if it is an alt for me because i find this spec really funny, but i saw video like this during the week



beside the ssj3 joke, its pretty strange to see those number with no gear.

I don't have the belt, but is it better to run SI over AS with it?

[Deleted]

The raid was a complete joke at that point because of valor points and the ring being maxed out. Of course burst specs became stronger then, but that is not the 'progress' part of the raid anymore. HFC was out for about 5 months at that point already. How many guilds relied on that or not isn't really relevant, as the time when class balance being healthy was important was long over at that point.

I understand that since you're in a top 100 guild you tend to think everything in the game has to revolve around that and everything else doesnt matter, but thats really not a good way to think about this. 4 months after HFC opened (21 june 21 oct) only 200 guilds cleared it. The game cant be balanced around method or top 200 guilds. Most people that raid dont even do mythic, and of those that do mythic in november only a very small part cleared HFC, so saying that the content was a joke is just wrong, since for the huge majority of the players it was not.

Again, you have to look at when a certain spec was broken. Shadow was broken for Emerald Nightmare progress, will be broken for Trials of Valor progress and is a monster at farm as killtimes get lower and lower. Not only is shadow undoubtedly number 1 at the moment, we are also ahead by margins that I don't think we've seen in years. This early in the expansion when content is still current and relevant, that is. And note that I also said that because shadow wasn't OP for a long time, they left us be for now until they can fix the underlying issues as well. We know this is true for a fact.

Back to the 'willing to get nerfed' bit again - look at what makes shadow broken, and you see that it's because of a mechanic that is incredibly hard to balance. The spec just can't move forward like this, it's not healthy for the future of the spec. It's not all about numbers.

Again, locks have had 2 expansions where they were overperforming the whole time, as said earlier. It was in the past? Of course it was in the past, but its not like with legion you just reset anything that happened before. Point is, a spec/class being OP is not that unusual at all, and blizzard kind of agrees with this since they said that one of the reasons to keep us like this for now was because we have never been OP before, thus admitting that other classes have, SEVERAL TIMES.

But the problem is that you tend to think in a too elitist way. Shadow is indeed OP now, but not for everyone. What you dont seem to understand is that the huge majority of the players will never be able to play shadow the way you do and pull the numbers you do, not even close. S2M is VERY frustrating and penalizing for the huge majority of the players. If you check mythic logs based on 50%, shadow is basically on par with other classes, rogue mages locks hunters. Its 10% higher only due to xavius, allow only one s2m there and you basically even. So wheres the problem with Shadow? The problem is that good players like you abuse s2m in way it becomes OP. But the fix is not to nerf us so then you are on par with other classes while the huge majority of players will suck behind everyone else. An average player playing shadow shouldnt be far from the average mage or lock (which might happen if they nerf us too much). And a very skilled shadow like you shouldnt be way above other classes like now.

[Deja Thoris]

I understand that since you're in a top 100 guild you tend to think everything in the game has to revolve around that and everything else doesnt matter, but thats really not a good way to think about this. 4 months after HFC opened (21 june 21 oct) only 200 guilds cleared it. The game cant be balanced around method or top 200 guilds. Most people that raid dont even do mythic, and of those that do mythic in november only a very small part cleared HFC, so saying that the content was a joke is just wrong, since for the huge majority of the players it was not.



Again, locks have had 2 expansions where they were overperforming the whole time, as said earlier. It was in the past? Of course it was in the past, but its not like with legion you just reset anything that happened before. Point is, a spec/class being OP is not that unusual at all, and blizzard kind of agrees with this since they said that one of the reasons to keep us like this for now was because we have never been OP before, thus admitting that other classes have, SEVERAL TIMES.

But the problem is that you tend to think in a too elitist way. Shadow is indeed OP now, but not for everyone. What you dont seem to understand is that the huge majority of the players will never be able to play shadow the way you do and pull the numbers you do, not even close. S2M is VERY frustrating and penalizing for the huge majority of the players. If you check mythic logs based on 50%, shadow is basically on par with other classes, rogue mages locks hunters. Its 10% higher only due to xavius, allow only one s2m there and you basically even. So wheres the problem with Shadow? The problem is that good players like you abuse s2m in way it becomes OP. But the fix is not to nerf us so then you are on par with other classes while the huge majority of players will suck behind everyone else. An average player playing shadow shouldnt be far from the average mage or lock (which might happen if they nerf us too much). And a very skilled shadow like you shouldnt be way above other classes like now.

Your whole post is pretty much irrelevant to how Blizz "have" to balance. They can't allow exceptional (or above average) players to break the game and then say "oh its ok not everyone can do that!". Can't you see this?

The alternative is to tune encounters with massive StM dps in mind to keep it relevant and then the average Joe will never be able to clear them.

StM has to change and StM will change. It will be nerfed so its not broken (yes, its broken) As a side note I fucking hate it when people can't look objectively at something and see it needs fixing because they happen to the on the winning side of whats broken. Show some objectivity.

[Poopymonster]

That is not unavoidable. Honestly, why are priests so willing to get nerfed all the times? Sometimes it seems like we are asking to be shit.
You make it sound like this has never happened before: WHOLE history of wow has some classes and spec scaling too well and ending up topping charts. Why is it such a huge deal if for once it happens to priest? I dont remember arcane mages asking for a nerf in HFC.
Seriously, instead of wanting a nerf to s2m we should be asking just one use in xavius, that is what is really messed up with s2m that puts us off the chart in the dmg.

Because it's like an abusive relationship.

You know it can happen because of something/anything.
Maybe this time they won't, maybe this time it'll be...
I need to wear long sleeves for a week.

After years of abuse, in cycles, that you expect to get nerfed.

[Isentropy]

I understand that since you're in a top 100 guild you tend to think everything in the game has to revolve around that and everything else doesnt matter, but thats really not a good way to think about this. 4 months after HFC opened (21 june 21 oct) only 200 guilds cleared it. The game cant be balanced around method or top 200 guilds. Most people that raid dont even do mythic, and of those that do mythic in november only a very small part cleared HFC, so saying that the content was a joke is just wrong, since for the huge majority of the players it was not.

When in doubt, just accuse the other party of being an elitist, right? Context is everything. In the case of HFC, the additional item level valor points gave plus the legendary ring being maxed out at that point meant that certain hard parts of fights could completely be skipped, or you could just brute force some mechanics which you might not have been able to do before. Sure there was still some difficulty there for guilds that just started to progress mythic, but comparatively, it was a joke. That was intended to be the raid nerf Blizzard always does after a while, and this usually signifies that progress is over in Blizzard's eyes. Nobody cares about the rank 500 guild that is still progressing at that point, that is just not what people refer to as progress anymore as a general term. And at the end of an expansion, why would Blizzard care about the tryhard speedkills that stacked arcane mages? Class balance isn't important anymore at that point. If you expect Blizzard to continue balancing around that sort of thing throughout the entire lifespan of the raid (the very thing you say the game shouldn't revolve around, ironically enough - because arcane mages really weren't even close to as OP back then as shadow is right now outside of the tryhard speedkills) then you have no sense of game design or logic.

Again, locks have had 2 expansions where they were overperforming the whole time, as said earlier. It was in the past? Of course it was in the past, but its not like with legion you just reset anything that happened before. Point is, a spec/class being OP is not that unusual at all, and blizzard kind of agrees with this since they said that one of the reasons to keep us like this for now was because we have never been OP before, thus admitting that other classes have, SEVERAL TIMES.

Specs that are OP always end up being nerfed, especially when it happens at the very beginning of a whole new expansion. Your logic is "This spec was OP in the past, therefore shadow being OP right now is acceptable and we should not be touched" and no, Blizzard does not agree with that - they are tolerating what is happening right now for a multitude of reasons, shadow not being OP historically is but one of those reasons. You can't just cherrypick what other people say and then claim it as your own infallible logic when you don't even understand the bigger picture of what it means exactly.

But the problem is that you tend to think in a too elitist way. Shadow is indeed OP now, but not for everyone. What you dont seem to understand is that the huge majority of the players will never be able to play shadow the way you do and pull the numbers you do, not even close. S2M is VERY frustrating and penalizing for the huge majority of the players. If you check mythic logs based on 50%, shadow is basically on par with other classes, rogue mages locks hunters. Its 10% higher only due to xavius, allow only one s2m there and you basically even. So wheres the problem with Shadow? The problem is that good players like you abuse s2m in way it becomes OP. But the fix is not to nerf us so then you are on par with other classes while the huge majority of players will suck behind everyone else. An average player playing shadow shouldnt be far from the average mage or lock (which might happen if they nerf us too much). And a very skilled shadow like you shouldnt be way above other classes like now.

As Deja Thoris said, something cannot be absolutely broken for 1% and then only slightly broken for the rest. That is just not how it works. And that very reason is why Surrender to Madness needs to change. Blizzard wants to close that gap between the top and the median by nerfing the top end damage of Surrender to Madness (probably through capping Mass Hysteria, as they originally intended to do a few weeks ago) and making the other level 100 talents better. Decreases skill gap and also gives a more viable alternative (perhaps slightly worse than Surrender in raids) to those that don't want to/can't play with Surrender to Madness. Once again: it's not just about numbers. It's also as if you have forgotten (or just never paid attention) I was one of the most vocal people to try and get Blizzard to understand the issues Surrender & the 100 row created for the spec. I knew Surrender was broken, and yeah being OP is nice, but long term it's not going to benefit the spec to rely on Surrender to Madness as much as we do now. There is zero point to keep quiet about something so blatantly broken - especially not when Blizzard has already acknowledges that they know it's too strong. The fact that people are calling out for shadow to get nerfed is because shadow and Surrender to Madness are basically synonymous with one another right now, and undeniably Surrender to Madness is over the top (and no, it doesn't matter that it's only extremely broken for a minority - and no, that's not elitism as much as you like throwing that word around) which means it needs to be nerfed. Not just Surrender to Madness needs to be targeted by changes though, so should our other level 100 talents. Lo and behold, this is exactly what Blizzard is going to do. We'll see what they come up with.

You need to learn to be more objective about your spec. Seriously.

[justflayin]

But the problem is that you tend to think in a too elitist way. Shadow is indeed OP now, but not for everyone. What you dont seem to understand is that the huge majority of the players will never be able to play shadow the way you do and pull the numbers you do, not even close. S2M is VERY frustrating and penalizing for the huge majority of the players. If you check mythic logs based on 50%, shadow is basically on par with other classes, rogue mages locks hunters. Its 10% higher only due to xavius, allow only one s2m there and you basically even. So wheres the problem with Shadow? The problem is that good players like you abuse s2m in way it becomes OP. But the fix is not to nerf us so then you are on par with other classes while the huge majority of players will suck behind everyone else. An average player playing shadow shouldnt be far from the average mage or lock (which might happen if they nerf us too much). And a very skilled shadow like you shouldnt be way above other classes like now.

Yes chastise players for being able use the things they were given.

[Deleted]

I got lucky yesterday to get the belt, how does it affect the rotation though once you get to the point of VB-MB-VB I guess there is no difference but when you are out of voidform to use all stacks to get back into VF asap?

[Deleted]

Balancing is always done in regard to top players, and the spec is judged in regard to how top players use it. Shadow is overpowered, there is no 2 ways about it, it's broken in hands of good players (which literally everyone but blizzard saw the moment S2M was implemented), it's not elitist attitude, good players make shadow OP and bad players don't which is true but class has to be balanced around its absolute potential, S2M can't stay broken just cause bad players can't use it properly, that logic just doesn't work in WoW.

And can people already stop with "naw, shadow is OP only cause of Xavius", get it out of your head, shadow is broken on literally every single fight and is going to remain so until they change that talent row.


Affli/Demo were broken as all hell in MoP, it got nerfed during progress to be in line with other specs (and it was), later on with valor upgrades affli once again was broken as all hell but it didn't really matter since progression was over. Same thing with arcane in WoD, it wasn't even "good" before ring and valor rolled around, and once those did come around it became "OP", but actual progress was already over and blizzard didn't care anymore (nor should they imo), if there was another tier after HFC I'm sure it'd get smacked to the ground cause then it would actually matter that arcane is OP. This is probably the first time they ever allowed a single spec to stay so broken on progress rather than actually fixing it, which shouldn't be that hard to begin with.


I'm not sure what where they thinking with STM, spell like that just cannot work and EVER be balanced good enough. They should remove it and just make 3 new talents for the entire row.

[Djriff]

I got lucky yesterday to get the belt, how does it affect the rotation though once you get to the point of VB-MB-VB I guess there is no difference but when you are out of voidform to use all stacks to get back into VF asap?

You can. Once you get to VB-MB-VB the rotation essentially turns into VB-MB-VB-MB-etc etc. Just death when you need to. Isen wrote a nice guide about it a few posts ago.

Balancing is always done in regard to top players, and the spec is judged in regard to how top players use it. Shadow is overpowered, there is no 2 ways about it, it's broken in hands of good players (which literally everyone but blizzard saw the moment S2M was implemented), it's not elitist attitude, good players make shadow OP and bad players don't which is true but class has to be balanced around its absolute potential, S2M can't stay broken just cause bad players can't use it properly, that logic just doesn't work in WoW.

Well said.

And can people already stop with "naw, shadow is OP only cause of Xavius", get it out of your head, shadow is broken on literally every single fight and is going to remain so until they change that talent row.

Yeah I mean it was intended for shadow to be so strong on that fight, but there are much worse fights we're strong on. Cenarius is a great example (if you don't die from your dots on boss xD). I'm usually in top 3 before I pop surrender and for a spec that basically is an execute class that's a bit on the ridiculous side.

Affli/Demo were broken as all hell in MoP, it got nerfed during progress to be in line with other specs (and it was), later on with valor upgrades affli once again was broken as all hell but it didn't really matter since progression was over. Same thing with arcane in WoD, it wasn't even "good" before ring and valor rolled around, and once those did come around it became "OP", but actual progress was already over and blizzard didn't care anymore (nor should they imo), if there was another tier after HFC I'm sure it'd get smacked to the ground cause then it would actually matter that arcane is OP. This is probably the first time they ever allowed a single spec to stay so broken on progress rather than actually fixing it, which shouldn't be that hard to begin with.

Arcanes main strength came from the insane interaction of Prophecy of Fear, Prismatic Crystal, and the fact arcane is a burst DPS class with minor sustain. That paired with the ring made it insanely good. Arcane itself was OK, but outside of that combo above it was fairly balanced.

I'm not sure what where they thinking with STM, spell like that just cannot work and EVER be balanced good enough. They should remove it and just make 3 new talents for the entire row.

While that's a bit on the extreme end, I personally like StM and the playstyle that goes with it. It's fun, it's punishing if you make a mistake, and it's worth the risk. The other talents definitely need to be brought up to par, but will still need to be slightly behind. The only way they could make StM be in line with the other 100 talents is if they removed the death mechanic to it and made it like a 3m CD with a short duration. Even then that would completely gimp the talent. They backed themselves into a corner.

[Quttan]

While that's a bit on the extreme end, I personally like StM and the playstyle that goes with it. It's fun, it's punishing if you make a mistake, and it's worth the risk. The other talents definitely need to be brought up to par, but will still need to be slightly behind. The only way they could make StM be in line with the other 100 talents is if they removed the death mechanic to it and made it like a 3m CD with a short duration. Even then that would completely gimp the talent. They backed themselves into a corner.

You said it yourself, they've backed themselves into a corner. STM can't be balanced when it's doing enough damage to justify the death mechanic and the death mechanic is too deeply ingrained with the feel of the talent to simply change it to something else. The best thing they can do for shadow is to just retire the talent entirely and let it rest in peace, so they can make a talent row that at least has the potential to be balanced.

[Deleted]

My problem with STM is that spell like that cannot be balanced. As the risk is death, rather then lower dps or whatever like usual risk/rewards are the payout has to be extreme making it either OP as hell like it is now or we are doing a very high risk thing to maybe keep up with others, which is also dumb.

[Djriff]

You said it yourself, they've backed themselves into a corner. STM can't be balanced when it's doing enough damage to justify the death mechanic and the death mechanic is too deeply ingrained with the feel of the talent to simply change it to something else. The best thing they can do for shadow is to just retire the talent entirely and let it rest in peace, so they can make a talent row that at least has the potential to be balanced.

Yeah, unfortunately as much as I love the playstyle, the talent itself needs to go. I know there's a lot of people saying they don't want it baseline, which would be the optimal solution over removing it completely.

My problem with STM is that spell like that cannot be balanced. As the risk is death, rather then lower dps or whatever like usual risk/rewards are the payout has to be extreme making it either OP as hell like it is now or we are very high risk thing to maybe keep up with others, which is also dumb.

If LotV was within like 10% of it, it would be fine. A talent that kills you is worth a 10% damage boost.

[Malico]

Lets see if it changes something from today PTR Patch Notes if I am not wrong. I really hope STM removes for next patch or sooner.

[Oktan]

If LotV was within like 10% of it, it would be fine. A talent that kills you is worth a 10% damage boost.

Except everyone would still pick StM, and not choose the other talents. People will ALWAYS pick the strongest talent, and having a death mechanic demands that it be the strongest choice. We would still be right back in the same boat of "not having a real choice" in that talent row.

[Quttan]

Yeah, unfortunately as much as I love the playstyle, the talent itself needs to go. I know there's a lot of people saying they don't want it baseline, which would be the optimal solution over removing it completely.

If LotV was within like 10% of it, it would be fine. A talent that kills you is worth a 10% damage boost.

That's another problem with the talent. Dying is worth a 10% damage boost, but one class can't be 10% ahead of the rest. And if the high end of STM is in line with the high end of other specs, then any talent other than STM needs to be 10% behind STM to justify its place. But then if you choose one of the 'alternative' talents, you're necessarily 10% behind classes that don't have to put up with such an absurd risk. You could make the high end of STM the same as the high end of the other talents in the row, but then the talent would just be "high risk, same reward", and it would feel awful because you're not actually getting any benefit from it. Just one more reason the talent doesn't have a place in the game.

[Djriff]

Except everyone would still pick StM, and not choose the other talents. People will ALWAYS pick the strongest talent, and having a death mechanic demands that it be the strongest choice. We would still be right back in the same boat of "not having a real choice" in that talent row.

10% is better than the gaping chasm that exists now. Considering I've been in groups where survival hunters are out DPS'ing MM hunters in raids. It's not always about maximum DPS potential if you can't do StM, then a 10% difference isn't going to be the end of the world. People that can't do StM aren't in top 100 guilds so it doesn't impact them as much. I'm not trying to argue that StM should only be balanced for people in top 100 guilds, but a 10% gap in damage would certainly be more acceptable than now if you can't play StM for w/e reason.

That's another problem with the talent. Dying is worth a 10% damage boost, but one class can't be 10% ahead of the rest. And if the high end of STM is in line with the high end of other specs, then any talent other than STM needs to be 10% behind STM to justify its place. But then if you choose one of the 'alternative' talents, you're necessarily 10% behind classes that don't have to put up with such an absurd risk. You could make the high end of STM the same as the high end of the other talents in the row, but then the talent would just be "high risk, same reward", and it would feel awful because you're not actually getting any benefit from it. Just one more reason the talent doesn't have a place in the game.

StM would be the only scenario where a class is 10% ahead of the rest. It's the most punishing talent in the game, so it should have the power for it accordingly.

[Oktan]

10% is better than the gaping chasm that exists now. Considering I've been in groups where survival hunters are out DPS'ing MM hunters in raids. It's not always about maximum DPS potential if you can't do StM, then a 10% difference isn't going to be the end of the world. People that can't do StM aren't in top 100 guilds so it doesn't impact them as much. I'm not trying to argue that StM should only be balanced for people in top 100 guilds, but a 10% gap in damage would certainly be more acceptable than now if you can't play StM for w/e reason.


StM would be the only scenario where a class is 10% ahead of the rest. It's the most punishing talent in the game, so it should have the power for it accordingly.

Not going to disagree with this in principal. However, people are lemmings, and when the average raider sees every shadow priest in every top guild still using StM, then they will follow suit-- even at their own detriment. Always has been the case, and always will be.

[Djriff]

Not going to disagree with this in principal. However, people are lemmings, and when the average raider sees every shadow priest in every top guild still using StM, then they will follow suit-- even at their own detriment. Always has been the case, and always will be.

That's true, but that's their fault and not anyone else's.