Retribution is SO BAD AND DULL

[Snegovik]

We did exactly that, for months during alpha and beta, it was all ignored completely.

Well they did remove HW and gave us DP instead =) so there is that lol but thats about it

[Deleted]

That's the thing with Blizzard. You have to understand how they work.

They almost never cave to pressure - only instance where they did was with real ID and somewhat caved with Flying (although I think the compromise is for the best).

If you want your feedback to reach Blizzard, you have to have a group of people teaming together to provide in-depth feedback about what works and what doesn't. Sadly, that's not what's happening right now - even good pieces of feedback do not go in depth.

1) You still refuse to defend your outrageous claims
2) I've submitted bug reports throughout the entire Alpha and Beta. None fixed
3) The ret forum thread on the US forums has more than 3x as many posts as any other class/spec thread, no blue has replied, nothing has changed
4) I tweet daily, and, once again, you missed the point of the thread: To get more people to tweet to remake ret talent tree

[Kalisandra]

If one goes to the Armoury 3v3 page <http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3> and filters for ratings 2725 - 3200, that gets the top 1015 characters - close enough to the top 1000. If one then filters for Retribution only, one finds sixteen of them, with a number clearly being owned by the same player. Being very generous, Ret's were 1.5% of the top 1000 3v3 characters in the season just done.

Rating 3005-3200 gives us the top 97 characters. One is a Ret (Avengelyne, 3005).

If we just look at the full ladder available there, 5006 characters, rating 2326+, we find 102 Rets, or 2%.

We can say with a fair degree of confidence that Ret was not fine in high level 3v3 play in the last season of WoD.


Doing the same thing with RBGs.

Top 5007: 12 Rets. That's 0.24%

Top 1011 (rating 2180+): One Ret. (also in the top 500, but not in the top 400)

Top 100: None.

So, we can be pretty damned certain that Rets weren't doing well in RBGs at a high level. Hell, they were hardly there at all.

[Deleted]

If one goes to the Armoury 3v3 page <http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3> and filters for ratings 2725 - 3200, that gets the top 1015 characters - close enough to the top 1000. If one then filters for Retribution only, one finds sixteen of them, with a number clearly being owned by the same player. Being very generous, Ret's were 1.5% of the top 1000 3v3 characters in the season just done.

Rating 3005-3200 gives us the top 97 characters. One is a Ret (Avengelyne, 3005).

If we just look at the full ladder available there, 5006 characters, rating 2326+, we find 102 Rets, or 2%.

We can say with a fair degree of confidence that Ret was not fine in high level 3v3 play in the last season of WoD.


Doing the same thing with RBGs.

Top 5007: 12 Rets. That's 0.24%

Top 1011 (rating 2180+): One Ret. (also in the top 500, but not in the top 400)

Top 100: None.

So, we can be pretty damned certain that Rets weren't doing well in RBGs at a high level. Hell, they were hardly there at all.

Great post, thank you. I thankfully chose to go from being a person who only PvP'd to only PvE for WoD. Seems like that was a good decision.

[Snegovik]

If one goes to the Armoury 3v3 page <http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/3v3> and filters for ratings 2725 - 3200, that gets the top 1015 characters - close enough to the top 1000. If one then filters for Retribution only, one finds sixteen of them, with a number clearly being owned by the same player. Being very generous, Ret's were 1.5% of the top 1000 3v3 characters in the season just done.

Rating 3005-3200 gives us the top 97 characters. One is a Ret (Avengelyne, 3005).

If we just look at the full ladder available there, 5006 characters, rating 2326+, we find 102 Rets, or 2%.

We can say with a fair degree of confidence that Ret was not fine in high level 3v3 play in the last season of WoD.


Doing the same thing with RBGs.

Top 5007: 12 Rets. That's 0.24%

Top 1011 (rating 2180+): One Ret. (also in the top 500, but not in the top 400)

Top 100: None.

So, we can be pretty damned certain that Rets weren't doing well in RBGs at a high level. Hell, they were hardly there at all.

Thank you sir for a detailed data break down =)

[Deleted]

Well specially if someone reaches haste cap ret is absolutely dull in single target raid environment and a bit less dull in aoe situations. That is unless u pick to stand in fire once every 3 mins to make that joke of a talent do some damage... As fr pvp ret been dead even for world pvp last expansion and now they burried it and placed a gravestone on top to avoid the stink

[Zandalarian Paladin]

1) You still refuse to defend your outrageous claims
2) I've submitted bug reports throughout the entire Alpha and Beta. None fixed
3) The ret forum thread on the US forums has more than 3x as many posts as any other class/spec thread, no blue has replied, nothing has changed
4) I tweet daily, and, once again, you missed the point of the thread: To get more people to tweet to remake ret talent tree

You're not looking for discussion, you're looking to rebuke anything I'll say. You're not getting anything else from me, I'm focusing on other players on this thread who have valuable things to add.

We did exactly that, for months during alpha and beta, it was all ignored completely.

As far as I'm concerned - it's not the beta forum so I can't comment on that, but on the official forums, there are a little bit of complaints yet hardly ever in-depth feedback pieces. I have no doubt that there has to be some on the beta forum, but has it been polished enough?

Class balance is more than just crunching numbers. People often say "JUST NERF X", most of the time in all-caps. Then you have those who give well writen feedback, yet is often personally biased: "When I ran X, I experienced Y which made Z". That's a personal experience, so it cannot be applied on masses.

When you write a piece of feedback about a class, you have to delve into the players' psychology. Does X feel rewarding? Does X is useful? Does X build up to reward? Is it fun?

Templars Verdict feel rewarding when you push it. Crusader Strike, not so much, but in symbiosis with Templars Verdict, it feels good. What made seals feel so good before? What made Hammer of Wrath so great? Hammer of Wrath was awesome, because it was something that gave you an edge under some circumstances. It was removed because they wanted one class to excel at that mechanic and that's ok too, although I miss it.

So when you take a look at talent trees, you have to ask the same questions: What's the intention behind this talent? Why are some parts functionnal and others aren't? Why do some abilities click more with one particular crowd over another?

Lets just take the first talent row. It's one of the most important row for Ret Paladins DPS, so it's even more relevant.

Final Verdict:

Lack the reward factor in itself. Damage is great, although not astounding. In general, a slight buff that requires little management. Useful for people who don't raid often or who likes to solo older content. It's not a fun choice though, as it is a passive that has no impact whatsoever on your gameplay.

Execution sentence:

This ability will be chosen by 90% of the playerbase because the damage is great, the cooldown is not too big and as Templar's Verdict, you get the rewarding feeling of spending your holy power.

Consecration:

A missed opportunity to bring back one of the most iconic Paladin spell. While the spell itself is neat, it's not useful in most circumstances nor does it feels rewarding to use - once again, in most cases. Because of the new talent restrictions, this one will simply get ignored because taking this would mean being less efficient in roughly 90% of a raid. Some trash packs might be worth it, or massive AoE boss like HFC first boss. Although it does fuse well with Divine Hammers, making the symbiosis between the two really interesting.

You see here, I didn't even delve in numbers which would be required to give thoughtful feedback. You also have to think the impact this would have on other classes. Most feedback pieces that can be seen on the forum does not even go into the bare minimum.

[Haelbrecht]

I won't comment much on our DPS numbers until I actually start playing Legion and acquire all the talents.

At the moment (1st/2nd day of prepatch) damage feels meh and I don't even want to imagine what would it look like without the T18 2-pc set and mythic class trinket (At least we can get the 3rd stacks more quickly now). And it looks like without DP procs our burst is also meh. Mobility is on par with a slab of granite but I don't mind it, a lot of other classes also lost mobility and I believe we don't need it as a class.

Regarding our talent tree, it looks and feels TERRIBLE. Absolutely terrible. The only ones I really like are the level 15 ones. Level 100 talents which are supposed to be the most powerful and rotation-altering are in my opinion the worst fucking talent options ever envisioned.

About WoD, I actually enjoyed it and was pretty ok in all raids. Especially enjoyed HFC with Seraphim. I will miss it very much.

About PvP, I never actually did much of it except for BG's. And literally every BG I've entered (At least in WoD) I was in top 5. Was especially fun when you could use the 3 AW's in BG's and absolutelly humiliate enemy healers.

All in all, the current rotation is very lackluster and extremely easy. Gonna be even easier at higher haste ratings.
I don't feel more paladin-ish like Blizzard promised to emphasize class fantasies etc. The only paladin-ish thing they added is Retribution ability which I really don't like because of it we surely got taxed on our actual consistent abilites. As a concept it's ok. Ashbringer tax is also real. Probably got taxed for our sexy-looking tierset as well.


Hope is the only thing we have now (like in every previous expansion), embrace it.

[Schattenlied]

You see here, I didn't even delve in numbers which would be required to give thoughtful feedback. You also have to think the impact this would have on other classes. Most feedback pieces that can be seen on the forum does not even go into the bare minimum.

All the feedback threads for alpha, back when they were doing build(meaning patch) specific threads for each spec had very well detailed breakdowns of why this shit doesn't work, and it was all ignored.

[Melkandor]

Paladins have been having a rough time for a while now. Ever since WotLK, we have been below every other melee classes.

Maybe you're playing Ret poorly? Back when I raided in Cata/WotLK our ret pally was always near the top of the charts.

[Deleted]

As far as I'm concerned - it's not the beta forum so I can't comment on that, but on the official forums, there are a little bit of complaints yet hardly ever in-depth feedback pieces. I have no doubt that there has to be some on the beta forum, but has it been polished enough?

Once again you have not read the thread. Did you take the time to read every page of the feedback thread? No? I did. As I explained on the first page(s?). You should aswell, maybe then you wouldn't be so fucking clueless about ret, because there's a fucktonne of in-depth analysis, links to spreadsheets, posts with 20+ bugs outlined with links to screenshots etc. Now fuck off and go do your homework

You've proven just how entitled to a credible opinion you are, that is, you aren't. One of your major points that was completely shot down you defend with "oops I read a tooltip wrong" proving once again you have not spent time on the beta, on live or in the Alpha.

Please just fuck off

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Maybe you're playing Ret poorly? Back when I raided in Cata/WotLK our ret pally was always near the top of the charts.

Wotlk paladins were very strong, mainly because their abilities were tuned toward undead (I remember when exorcism would always crit on undead and had a cast time!). In cata they were definitely not in the top row. Inquisition was a pain and only three HP was worse. MoP was a little better, but considered how every melee class was better at equivalent item level (assuming people are on the same skill ceiling), ret was again behind the curve. WoD was the best we had since Wotlk, although this time we're middle of the pack, mostly below other melees but we can handle ourselves.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're not looking for discussion, you're looking to rebuke anything I'll say. You're not getting anything else from me, I'm focusing on other players on this thread who have valuable things to add.

yet the point still stands:
You still refuse to defend your outrageous claims.

claiming GBlessing of Wisdom is better then ExSen heal is one thing, but blatantly stating Supplication was of no meaning and had it's use only while leveling - it is omething else entirely.

You see here, I didn't even delve in numbers which would be required to give thoughtful feedback. You also have to think the impact this would have on other classes. Most feedback pieces that can be seen on the forum does not even go into the bare minimum.

do we need to get through this shit again?

Does it take a well-trained team of highly skilled psychiatrists to figure out why and how sucky Derpony is?

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Does it take a well-trained team of highly skilled psychiatrists to figure out why and how sucky Derpony is?

Actually, somewhat. You need a professional study to be a game designer - either in psychology, social sciences or a specific game design professional study. All three will also require you to have college mathematics.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Actually, somewhat. You need a professional study to be a game designer - either in psychology, social sciences or a specific game design professional study. All three will also require you to have college mathematics.

7/11 for dodging questions

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

Actually, somewhat. You need a professional study to be a game designer - either in psychology, social sciences or a specific game design professional study. All three will also require you to have college mathematics.

I drink, and I know things.

[Deleted]

Actually, somewhat. You need a professional study to be a game designer - either in psychology, social sciences or a specific game design professional study. All three will also require you to have college mathematics.

You actually cannot claim anything that is correct, can you?

[Zandalarian Paladin]

You actually cannot claim anything that is correct, can you?

http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=15000EH

REQUIREMENTS
A minimum of 3 years' game design experience, including senior or lead design experience on a shipped product
Excellent written and verbal communications skills
Able to work creatively in a demanding team environment
Experience playing through many dungeon or raid encounters
Absolute passion for playing and making computer games

PLUSES
Non-design development experience (artist, programmer, etc.)
Bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience
Experience managing, and / or mentoring others

Now, you would know, had you ever opened a single game design book, that mathematics and a basic psychology understanding are a requirement.

Also, for these applications, "Pluses" mean "Mandatory" considering the amount of people applying.

But, what do I know? Its not like I used to work at a AAA studio... wait, did I?

By the way, I left when I realized how bad the industry was. Paperwork after paperwork, passion within AAA studio is low. It's mostly a job, ideas are gutted one after another, taking risks is not the investors strong suit and employees don't even bother reading feedback. Where I worked, some people did not even know we had a public platform for players to give us feedback - and it was one of the biggest AAA studio.

[Mumba]

I want to gently slap the ones who removed the ability to run faster (Pursuit of Justice). No, Seal of Light does NOT count.

[Schattenlied]

And yet another patch (hotfixes) gets pushed without any fixes to Ret's glaring issues, or even fixing any of the many bugs that we suffer from, despite it being a bugfix patch.