Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen

[Super Kami Dende]

Hopefully this isn't considered a necro. If it is, my apologies, mods.

Anyway, I started watching some videos and doing more research about this game and I am extremely hyped to play it. I've been looking for something more hardcore and with an emphasis on social experiences, since WoW hasn't done this in a long time.

I wish Visionary Realms would get Cohh back on stream again, he was awesome and seemed like he was having a genuinely good time.

I watched a few of the Pre-alpha Videos in the last WEek and if anything I don't want to touch this game at all. It looks incredibly boring and like it is from the early 2000's

[stellvia]

I watched a few of the Pre-alpha Videos in the last WEek and if anything I don't want to touch this game at all. It looks incredibly boring and like it is from the early 2000's

That is kinda literally the point of the MMO. It's made by old EQ1 or EQ1-era devs and designed to scratch that style itch for that particular niche of player. It's okay not to like it though.

[Eleccybubb]

I watched a few of the Pre-alpha Videos in the last WEek and if anything I don't want to touch this game at all. It looks incredibly boring and like it is from the early 2000's

Pretty much my view.

Loads of MMOs have tried appealing to niche audiences. And well how are they doing today? Literally any MMO that tried this in recent years hasn't done well for itself.

[Super Kami Dende]

That is kinda literally the point of the MMO. It's made by old EQ1 or EQ1-era devs and designed to scratch that style itch for that particular niche of player. It's okay not to like it though.

Going for a niche player, among an aging market within a dying and niche genre. I hope their 5 years of development is worth the 3 months of upkeep.

[Highwhale]

That is kinda literally the point of the MMO. It's made by old EQ1 or EQ1-era devs and designed to scratch that style itch for that particular niche of player. It's okay not to like it though.

This. Game not trying to be something big and since beginning devs said they cater for small but stable type of players community.

There was stream with Jim Lee:



They buffed special effects and dynamic lighting.

Also stream with night in open world - nights are actually dark:

[Super Kami Dende]

Pretty much my view.

Loads of MMOs have tried appealing to niche audiences. And well how are they doing today? Literally any MMO that tried this in recent years hasn't done well for itself.

The odd thing is, you can replicate the old style of gameplay without making a game that looks like a kid in first year of Games design at University made it. Everything just looks slow and clunky and if they are going for the Everquest crowd, as someone who played EQ a lot back in the day, even it wasn't as slow and awful as this looks.

- - - Updated - - -

This. Game not trying to be something big and since beginning devs said they cater for small but stable type of players community.

There was stream with Jim Lee:



They buffed special effects and dynamic lighting.

Also stream with night in open world - nights are actually dark:

The weird thing is every time I see something that looks awful and makes me cringe about the old style games, within 5 secs the person will always say "Wow the nostalgia!".

Nostalgia is fine, but its not something you base an entire game around. I mean good luck to them if and when they finally release the game. I just realistically foresee it dying faster than even some of the more popular titles that tried this kind of nostalgia in recent years.

[Eleccybubb]

-snip-

And if they intend to use a sub model then they are already screwed.

A sub game of this scale cannot survive on a small community. If they do launch it as sub then it will be B2P/F2P within a year or two at most.

FF11 is a rare exception because well... It's cheap as hell to maintain.

The issue again is while I respect trying to appeal to that niche/oldschool crowd it just doesn't work anymore. Accessibility is the key to making a successful product. That's just how the modern MMORPG is imo. Look at WoW, FF14, GW2, ESO and so on.

Look at Wildstar. Look at how that tried to foster a niche community with oldschool systems. Where is it now? F2P with a piddly amount of players.

Look at BDO which tried to foster the oldschool grindy as hell systems. I mean it's not in a dire state but well it has had a heavy dropoff from launch.

Now don't get me wrong nostalgia is a nice thing. I love going back and playing my retro games. However this isn't really appealing to my nostalgic MMO senses. Graphics are poor. Going back to oldschool systems isn't an excuse for underwhelming graphics.

[Tackhisis]

Why is the combat so boooring?
And why they show us the same things as in 2016?

[Highwhale]

And if they intend to use a sub model then they are already screwed.

A sub game of this scale cannot survive on a small community. If they do launch it as sub then it will be B2P/F2P within a year or two at most.

Like it already was said game is made for old generation players who played first Everquest and such. These players already 30+ years old, have families, jobs etc. They easily can allow themselves p2p game.

The weird thing is every time I see something that looks awful and makes me cringe about the old style games, within 5 secs the person will always say "Wow the nostalgia!".

Nostalgia is fine, but its not something you base an entire game around. I mean good luck to them if and when they finally release the game. I just realistically foresee it dying faster than even some of the more popular titles that tried this kind of nostalgia in recent years.

Well look at Dragon Age Origins - game was made with Baldur Gate nostalgia and represented old gameplay of slow tactical combat system, non voiced long dialogs etc. Game was success when its sequel that was made in more modern style failed.

I not defending this game - yes its too old and kinda clunky. But game already have its niche among players - its supported with kickstarter. If no one wanted it in first place they didn't had money to start development.

PS Also game still in pre Alpha. They plan launch Alpha in this year and if lucky beta in next.

[Eleccybubb]

Like it already was said game is made for old generation players who played first Everquest and such. These players already 30+ years old, have families, jobs etc. They easily can allow themselves p2p game.



Well look at Dragon Age Origins - game was made with Baldur Gate nostalgia and represented old gameplay of slow tactical combat system, non voiced long dialogs etc. Game was success when its sequel that was made in more modern style failed.

I not defending this game - yes its too old and kinda clunky. But game already have its niche among players - its supported with kickstarter. If no one wanted it in first place they didn't had money to start development.

PS Also game still in pre Alpha. They plan launch Alpha in this year and if lucky beta in next.

That's not what I was getting at though.

The issue isn't the income of the players. A niche audience game without any real brand recognition will not survive on the sub model. It doesn't matter if they can afford it if there is a niche amount paying for it. There are plenty of sub games that went F2P because of this reason and they weren't even niche ones.

Also considering the swampland that Kickstarter is just no. It's not a breeding ground to make good games. Look at Star Citizen for example. Outside of official forums nobody really gives a shit and people are wondering if the project is ever going to be finished.

[Highwhale]

Now don't get me wrong nostalgia is a nice thing. I love going back and playing my retro games. However this isn't really appealing to my nostalgic MMO senses. Graphics are poor. Going back to oldschool systems isn't an excuse for underwhelming graphics.

Graphic don't matter for players that this game orientated.

[Eleccybubb]

Graphic don't matter for players that this game orientated.

Uhm yes they do. That's a poor way of justifying the graphics which really need some work because it's clear they want to go for a quality approach on this game.

Nostalgia is not an excuse for subpar graphics.

Gameplay does matter more correct but it's 2018. That game should look a lot better considering I remember the graphics being touted about during early stages.

[Highwhale]

That's not what I was getting at though.

The issue isn't the income of the players. A niche audience game without any real brand recognition will not survive on the sub model. It doesn't matter if they can afford it if there is a niche amount paying for it. There are plenty of sub games that went F2P because of this reason and they weren't even niche ones.

Also considering the swampland that Kickstarter is just no. It's not a breeding ground to make good games. Look at Star Citizen for example. Outside of official forums nobody really gives a shit and people are wondering if the project is ever going to be finished.

I don't get your logic. How game with small community that pays salaries each month can't survive when F2P games can?

[Eleccybubb]

I don't get your logic. How game with small community that pays salaries each month can't survive when F2P games can?

Because F2P games usually have a large cash shop that focuses on things that grab the consumer. Cosmetics like amazing costumes or dye kits for example. And usually most F2P games have a publisher that may help them financially sometimes. Like NCSOFT with Wildstar.

When a sub game has a small audience the development costs/salaries will start to outweigh that income. Hence a part of the reason sub games go F2P and try to make money through different methods. Rift, Wildstar, ESO (well went B2P but still moved away from a sub model) and so on.

If this game is really aimed at a niche audience and if the devs are intent on a sub model it will not be a sub model for long. As games that target niche audiences have proven.

However a B2P model would be more beneficial to this game imo along with a cash shop akin to GW2.

[Edge-]

Loads of MMOs have tried appealing to niche audiences. And well how are they doing today? Literally any MMO that tried this in recent years hasn't done well for itself.

There are plenty of small, niche MMO's still around and kicking - Mortal, Xyson etc. Not tons of support, but they're even smaller than Pantheon in terms of scope etc.

Pantheon is more a part of the recent wave of indie MMO's focusing on more niche markets like Shroud of the Avatar, Crowfall, Camelot Unchained etc., and honestly if McQuaid can pull it off there's plenty of market space for a moderate success with what he's shooting for. Basically he's looking to pull in the EQ/P99 crowd (there's plenty of them, and they'll gladly pay a sub) plus extra folks like wayward Vanguard players who haven't found another home yet.

It's not going to set the world on fire, but it can absolutely achieve enough success to chug along with steady support.

[ryanmahaffe]

I am looking forward to Pantheon, it seems interesting and I want to play it with my brother who is very excited about it. However, I doubt I can get into this game on my own. I can see it being moderately successful though with a small but healthy playerbase.

[Eleccybubb]

There are plenty of small, niche MMO's still around and kicking - Mortal, Xyson etc. Not tons of support, but they're even smaller than Pantheon in terms of scope etc.

Pantheon is more a part of the recent wave of indie MMO's focusing on more niche markets like Shroud of the Avatar, Crowfall, Camelot Unchained etc., and honestly if McQuaid can pull it off there's plenty of market space for a moderate success with what he's shooting for. Basically he's looking to pull in the EQ/P99 crowd (there's plenty of them, and they'll gladly pay a sub) plus extra folks like wayward Vanguard players who haven't found another home yet.

It's not going to set the world on fire, but it can absolutely achieve enough success to chug along with steady support.

Oh god for sure I agree. However I don't see it lasting long if it chooses a sub model is what I meant. But that's just my 2 cents on the matter. I mean ESO has brand recognition and that had to switch it's model.

Wildstar I remember having a huge influx of subs then it dipping to an extremely small number. The point I meant was sub numbers can't be too low otherwise the income just isn't enough to pay salaries or development costs.

I just think it would do better as B2P with a cash shop like GW2. People love stuff like spangly and sexy outfits among other things.

I just think these Indie MMOs are part of the reason why the market is so overgrown with bad games but of course not the single reason. That would be idiotic if I attributed these MMOs alone to that. Not saying all of them are bad either.

Personally I'll admit I'm a bit tired of seeing MMORPGS get a bit overhyped then be a disappointment. I just want a brand new MMO to come along and kick the ass of the current top dogs. Not in terms of player count but just something to reinvent the wheel that Everquest and WoW essentially brought in.

[Edge-]

Oh god for sure I agree. However I don't see it lasting long if it chooses a sub model is what I meant.

I do. They're going for a very oldschool crowd, the type of folks that legit want to see a return to subscription servers and a retreat from F2P practices. The game has a tiny budget and likely won't be terribly expensive to continue operating, so they won't need huge playerbases to keep development teams employed.

It's all just a matter if McQuaid can actually deliver this time around or if we see a repeat of Vanguards launch all over again. Which I really hope we don't, because there's a lot about Pantheon that interests me.

[Eleccybubb]

I do. They're going for a very oldschool crowd, the type of folks that legit want to see a return to subscription servers and a retreat from F2P practices. The game has a tiny budget and likely won't be terribly expensive to continue operating, so they won't need huge playerbases to keep development teams employed.

It's all just a matter if McQuaid can actually deliver this time around or if we see a repeat of Vanguards launch all over again. Which I really hope we don't, because there's a lot about Pantheon that interests me.

I never really knew much about Vanguard so I can't comment.

As I said I just want an MMO to come along be it Indie or a well known dev to reinvent the wheel. The problem is how do devs reinvent the wheel?

The issue is though MMOs with sub models have tried to somewhat grasp that oldschool concept. Again going back to Wildstar. While not a full on oldschool style it had a few oldschool elements there and well in the nicest way of putting this. It tanked hard with a sub model.

[Tech614]

I do. They're going for a very oldschool crowd, the type of folks that legit want to see a return to subscription servers and a retreat from F2P practices. The game has a tiny budget and likely won't be terribly expensive to continue operating, so they won't need huge playerbases to keep development teams employed.

It's all just a matter if McQuaid can actually deliver this time around or if we see a repeat of Vanguards launch all over again. Which I really hope we don't, because there's a lot about Pantheon that interests me.

The only reason EQ survives through things like P99 and legacy servers is nostalgia.

It's flat out bad game design in modern days, and players are not going to have the same nostalgic connection to it. The same reason Vanguard bombed tbh.

I don't have any hopes for EQ clones, just like I don't see any point in WoW clones(which thankfully have stopped finally). Patheon will be even more shaky then normal since it doesn't have any actual company funding it. Once the crowd funding dries up they will be forced to release it with whatever they have, and it will probably be disappointing to say the least.

EQ style gameplay is not something that is timeless or aged well. Patheon was pretty much doomed from the start, though I do hope I'm wrong as I like some of the premises of the game.