[Legion - 7.2] Not's Demonology Guide

[Deleted]

I am using Simulationcraft only. Settings are for single target raid boss (with single target spec). No buffs, outside of flask and pots. I think only way to get haste below intellect is if you check BL on buffs, which from what i suspect uses the bl buff for the whole duration of the encounter. Siming with BL drops the value of haste A LOT. Haste - int normalized values for me are Haste:1.1 , Int: 1

That aside it shouldnt matter much since rings dont have intellect, i tryed siming with bl too just for the sake of it, and it still show lower dps with the 855 ring (haste>Mastery) than the 850 one (Mastery >haste) which in my mind makes no sence...

Edit: Some people have said that around 13.600 haste, drops it just under intellect. Personally i havent simed with that high haste though

No, BL is not wrongly being used during the entire encounter. But you may underestimate how much the BL phase affects the value of haste. Because of how much of your overall DPS comes from that phase, it does indeed push your other stats up in relation to it. On our latest Nythendra kill, for example, the BL phase was 17,5% of my total damage but only 7,5% of the fight duration. This obviously goes up and down, but that's how strong that phase is.

Siming without BL will not provide accurate results, because you'll overvalue haste. It's good, but it's not above intellect unless you're at lower then average levels to begin with. I went all the way down to 30% and it still doesn't overtake int. It's roughly equal, but not stronger.

[Altecman]

Woz/Not, or anyone else here, can someone 100% definitively answer whether Sindorei Spite works across all specs? I received my first Demo legendary yesterday and I am not sure if I should keep trying to fish for the bracers, or change my specialization back to destro. Since, although demo is viable for a few fights on Mythic, destro is overall more useful. If the bracers can be confirmed to work for destro I can happily stay demo specialization.

[Deleted]

How highly would people rate the chrono shard set bonus? I've got an 850 strand of the stars but also an 870 neck with 1300 haste on it.

[Deleted]

Siming without BL will not provide accurate results, because you'll overvalue haste. It's good, but it's not above intellect unless you're at lower then average levels to begin with. I went all the way down to 30% and it still doesn't overtake int. It's roughly equal, but not stronger.

I am sorry but thats a totaly false statement.
When you want to see how important a stat for a spec is, you dont sim with buffs that alter a certain stat so much, cause you dont get an accurate result. You are thinking it backwards
If you want to "tailor" your spec around bloodlust phase thats fine, but If you want to see how each stat affects the spec, its differend. Do you think that when people are talking about haste breakpoints for example and talk about gearing, that they assume its happening under the effect of bloodlust? no..Bloodlust will allways be a dps gain no matter what items you have. what you are saying is that the right way to choose gear, is to get gear that "lets you get the most of bloodlust", instead of gear that makes you perform better generally, which is subjective at best.

Anyway just to be clear, that haste is more important then intellect even at 35%,37% haste+ (at around 850-55 ilvl) is not debatable. Its a fact, or math if you want, that also many others in this thread have found for themselfs and posted (if you read through the thread) and also ofc the op (guide?)

All that aside, all this has nothing to do with what i originaly posted and its getting offtopic

Edit: So what you are saying for example is that all the relic/trinket dps comparisons/sims that Not has done for the guide, are all with using Bl in mind ? i am actually curious now..

[Woz]

Woz/Not, or anyone else here, can someone 100% definitively answer whether Sindorei Spite works across all specs? I received my first Demo legendary yesterday and I am not sure if I should keep trying to fish for the bracers, or change my specialization back to destro. Since, although demo is viable for a few fights on Mythic, destro is overall more useful. If the bracers can be confirmed to work for destro I can happily stay demo specialization.

They still work across all specs, yes.

How highly would people rate the chrono shard set bonus? I've got an 850 strand of the stars but also an 870 neck with 1300 haste on it.

The set is not worth using - Chrono Shard alone is however.

- - - Updated - - -

Edit: So what you are saying for example is that all the relic/trinket dps comparisons/sims that Not has done for the guide, are all with using Bl in mind ? i am actually curious now..

Yes everything is done with Lust.

[Deleted]

I am sorry but thats a totaly false statement.
When you want to see how important a stat for a spec is, you dont sim with buffs that alter a certain stat so much, cause you dont get an accurate result. You are thinking it backwards
If you want to "tailor" your spec around bloodlust phase thats fine, but If you want to see how each stat affects the spec, its differend. Do you think that when people are talking about haste breakpoints for example and talk about gearing, that they assume its happening under the effect of bloodlust? no..Bloodlust will allways be a dps gain no matter what items you have. what you are saying is that the right way to choose gear, is to get gear that "lets you get the most of bloodlust", instead of gear that makes you perform better generally, which is subjective at best.

Anyway just to be clear, that haste is more important then intellect even at 35%,37% haste+ (at around 850-55 ilvl) is not debatable. Its a fact, or math if you want, that also many others in this thread have found for themselfs and posted (if you read through the thread) and also ofc the op (guide?)

All that aside, all this has nothing to do with what i originaly posted and its getting offtopic

Edit: So what you are saying for example is that all the relic/trinket dps comparisons/sims that Not has done for the guide, are all with using Bl in mind ? i am actually curious now..

You sim for actual situations. As long as the sim model is correct, the value of your stats will come from how much damage it will give you during the encounter you sim for. "Haste breakpoints" and everything are taken into account as long as the model isn't bugged or incomplete. If you'd fall below a certain breakpoint (if they existed), simcraft would show this and adjust your stat weights accordingly. It's just math.

Also curious, what haste breakpoint are you talking about? More demons for TKC? You need way more haste than you can "safely" achieve to really push another wave in.

Now, there are situations where you indeed want to just sim stat vs stat without external modifiers. Like if you have a certain job in the raid where bloodlust's value drops and your important DPS is needed in other phases to get priority targets down faster. But so far, no encounters require this and quite frankly - I'd never sim myself for these odd situations to begin with.

[Deleted]

You sim for actual situations. As long as the sim model is correct, the value of your stats will come from how much damage it will give you during the encounter you sim for. "Haste breakpoints" and everything are taken into account as long as the model isn't bugged or incomplete. If you'd fall below a certain breakpoint (if they existed), simcraft would show this and adjust your stat weights accordingly. It's just math.

Also curious, what haste breakpoint are you talking about? More demons for TKC? You need way more haste than you can "safely" achieve to really push another wave in.

Now, there are situations where you indeed want to just sim stat vs stat without external modifiers. Like if you have a certain job in the raid where bloodlust's value drops and your important DPS is needed in other phases to get priority targets down faster. But so far, no encounters require this and quite frankly - I'd never sim myself for these odd situations to begin with.

The haste breakpoints thing was a general example, it wasnt specific about demo. I was under the impression that you sim with lust and raid buffs when you want to see your actuall expected dps in the raid. And that if you want to compare two items or to see the value of certain stat in the spec that you remove "third party" buffs that affect the result. So thanks for clearing this up (Also thnx to Not for clearing the relic/trinket comparison thing up).

So to answer your original question to me, under that context (with lust), i get haste as best secondary stat at around (0,73) 35% haste, but its fairly close to the others. At around 39%, haste starts becoming the bottom stat (ilvl 854).

[Deleted]

Hello.

With what settings did you run the sims for trinkets?

With the debate lately of farming arcanocrystal with coin since Jim will be gone for good soon, I made some sims myself. I cant post screenshot but it ended like this :

Sinuous Wind 850 : 246.204
UnluckyCharm 860: 238,008
Arcanocrystal860 : 237,879
ChronoShard 840: 233,241

When I look at yours, Arcanocrystal is dead first without a doubt. I know I should trust yours but why don't I get the same results.

[xuros]

Question about the eyeball pet talent. Say there is one target out when you summon it and the pet attacks that target due to it having doom on. Now another spawns and you cast doom on it. Will the pet now attack both or does it only tunnel the mobs that have doom on it at the time of the cast?

[blackops2008]

just asking... do i need to wait grimoire of sinergy to proc to use my thalki'el consumption in some situations or should be used on cd with the suggered number of summons?

[Woz]

Question about the eyeball pet talent. Say there is one target out when you summon it and the pet attacks that target due to it having doom on. Now another spawns and you cast doom on it. Will the pet now attack both or does it only tunnel the mobs that have doom on it at the time of the cast?

It attacks any target with Doom on it regardless of when you put Doom on it while it's alive.

just asking... do i need to wait grimoire of sinergy to proc to use my thalki'el consumption in some situations or should be used on cd with the suggered number of summons?

Use it with max pets, don't wait for TKC.

[Deleted]

How are people finding Demo to play in dungeons - unlocked the hidden skin recently so begin taking an interest in playing it there.

Tried running with Shadowflame and Darkglare and the output felt fine, able to top on plenty of dungeons, but it felt a bit throttled at times with the amount of globals not spent on implosion.

Tried SI and Conduit on another run and it felt a bit cleaner, seen this spec being used on some M+ runs too - is that the go-to or is it just "easier". I know a lot of my problems with playing demo are purely lack of hands on experience with the new one outside of pvp, I'm sure both specs could have been played significantly better if I was more used to the spec.

[Deleted]

I'm finding really good success(comparable or better than on my hunter) with Not's loadout: Demonic Calling - Implosion - Shadowfury - Hand of Doom - Burning Rush - Synergy - Demonbolt
Swapping to Demon Skin if the group has more than 2 reliable AOE stuns obviously. I've played a lot with Shadowflame as well, using it as a movement skill/to gain at least 1 shard to open on new trashpacks with a Hand of Gul'dan, but I do like Demonic Calling more(I do have Recurrent Ritual, however). This week especially Demonology is amazing for high M+ pushes being able to ST down high mobs in a pack and saving up 8+ Imps to finish off the entire pack at the same time to make Bolstering a non-issue.

One thing I've noticed during raids: Xavius' Dream cooldown reset does not work 100% as expected, it only readies 1 charge of Shadowflame. This does however enable you to extend a 3-stack Shadowflame 1 more time than you usually could and in favourable timings, 2 more times than you usually could. Stacking up Shadowflame to at least 2 right before your Dream ends should always be worth it then.

[blackops2008]

Just adding here. With 38% haste + troll racial + BL you can pull 10 imps + 2 dreadstalkers + 1 doomguard thal'kiel consuption in your opening even using shadowflame talent.

So i guess 38% haste could be a "breakpoint" if you're troll race since your BL phase burst improves greatly because the extra 4 imps you can pull before using thalk'el consumption.

The breakpoint could be abit less haste, since i play with 200 ms

[Deleted]

Just adding here. With 38% haste + troll racial + BL you can pull 10 imps + 2 dreadstalkers + 1 doomguard thal'kiel consuption in your opening even using shadowflame talent.

So i guess 38% haste could be a "breakpoint" if you're troll race since your BL phase burst improves greatly because the extra 4 imps you can pull before using thalk'el consumption.

The breakpoint could be abit less haste, since i play with 200 ms

I'm not a troll and I've got 34,5% haste currently. I can pull 10 imp + DS opener without a problem as well, with BL of course. At least with either Shadowflame or DC proc.
Even so, TKC with 4 more imps in the opener does not nearly qualify as a breakpoint. It would have a pretty low impact on the value of haste. Being able to constantly reach 10 imps for each TKC would however. But we can't reach that level of haste yet without gimping ourselves.

Haste is still our second strongest stat - after INT - up til roughly 40%. It then drops in favor of other stats.

[Addition]: I'd say that everyone would be absolutely fine if they just went on Not's site (in his sig) - copy the stat weights from there - and enter them into the addon Pawn. Makes it so easy to decide on upgrades. When you want to take it further, learn to sim yourself with Simulationcraft and do that between every other gear upgrade. Also try siming for different situations and see how that affects your weights. Patchwerk in all it's glory - it rarely exists as a real encounter.

[Bridius]

Is there a way to fix the Demonology artfiact weapon import in Simcraft or do I need to look up the ID for gems/relics every time?

[Woz]

Is there a way to fix the Demonology artfiact weapon import in Simcraft or do I need to look up the ID for gems/relics every time?

SimCraft Addon.

[Lucrece]

How are people finding Demo to play in dungeons - unlocked the hidden skin recently so begin taking an interest in playing it there.

Tried running with Shadowflame and Darkglare and the output felt fine, able to top on plenty of dungeons, but it felt a bit throttled at times with the amount of globals not spent on implosion.

Tried SI and Conduit on another run and it felt a bit cleaner, seen this spec being used on some M+ runs too - is that the go-to or is it just "easier". I know a lot of my problems with playing demo are purely lack of hands on experience with the new one outside of pvp, I'm sure both specs could have been played significantly better if I was more used to the spec.

You're not gonna beat a competent destro lock let alone the apex 5 man specs of havoc/WW/fire/MM/BM/outlaw. Demo shines in raids, not 5 mans. You use demo out of extreme preference for the playstyle, but if you want to optimize you'll probably be playing destro in 5 mans. Demo is not great at target switching, it lags on key priority adds like Naraxxas, its aoe is middling; it shines on bosses, which are a vast minority of the mythic 5 man experience. Even with tyrannical you'll likely be having a harder time in +10 with affixes that buff trash like the end scorpions on neltharion's or some trash in BRH.

Implosion's nice but it won't let you compete with top aoe specs. Good news is outside OP outlaw rogues, MM hunters, shadow priest and fire mages, other top single target specs like feral druid are also crappy aoe/target switch specs. You at least get to shine at something, unlike say frost DK.

[Deleted]

You're not gonna beat a competent destro lock let alone the apex 5 man specs of havoc/WW/fire/MM/BM/outlaw. Demo shines in raids, not 5 mans. You use demo out of extreme preference for the playstyle, but if you want to optimize you'll probably be playing destro in 5 mans. Demo is not great at target switching, it lags on key priority adds like Naraxxas, its aoe is middling; it shines on bosses, which are a vast minority of the mythic 5 man experience. Even with tyrannical you'll likely be having a harder time in +10 with affixes that buff trash like the end scorpions on neltharion's or some trash in BRH.

Implosion's nice but it won't let you compete with top aoe specs. Good news is outside OP outlaw rogues, MM hunters, shadow priest and fire mages, other top single target specs like feral druid are also crappy aoe/target switch specs. You at least get to shine at something, unlike say frost DK.

There's so much wrong in this attempt at overviewing the "viability" of specs in 5man content right now...
Demo beats Destro on mass AoE by 200-400k DPS unless the Destro lock has Feretory and/or goes zero ST max AOE talents, it also beats Destro on single target by 50-150k. 2 target cleave is where Destruction obviously beats Demo by a mile, carrying enough to have more overall DPS on 3 target cleave most likely. The choice between Destruction and Demo is made not in 5mans however, since the other weapon will most likely lag behind by a lot because the 2 specs share BiS relics(Wild Imp damage = Immolate crit chance).
Compared to other classes: Demo is on par with the very common 13-trait BM on AoE as well as with MM and Outlaw barring 6buffs. It does lose on ST to MM and WW, but unless you're doing very very low M+ dungeons, the sustained DPS of Demo will outshine the burst-then-nothing DPS of Fire.
The target swap is undoubtedly weaker than a lot of other specs', but it's not at all terrible with demonbolt and then Implosion if something really needs to die right now.

In my experience, Fire Mage and WW straight up instant-wipe your group unless they are being very careful(and therefore do fuck all) because it is very hard for them to avoid killing off lower HP adds in big mob packs. Warp Shades in Arcway with 15 bolstering buffs from Mana Wyrms are not a very pleasant experience I can tell you...
Always targeting the highest HP mob in a pack and having TKC to equalize bigger differences in %HP then having finishing power IN AOE with Implosion has proven extremely useful, a lot more useful than the chaotic nature of Fire Mage AOE for example. Granted this is rather specific to Bolstering, but even outside of this week, unless you're doing very low M+ content, the mobs that matter definitely live long enough for Implosion to be top-tier AOE. It needs setup, but in challenging content, you will have the time for that very setup.

[Deleted]

Hmm, I may have spoken too soon about stat weights.

Not - do you know if importing from the Simcraft addon gives the accurate results? Since it's missing quite a lot from the .simc that gets imported from the armory import function.
I mean, the Simcraft addon string merely contains gear, talents and artifact. It contains no actions. Are these added automatically anyway?

If so, I do indeed get haste > int (1.10 to 1) at my haste level (34,5%)

If so, I apologize for potential misinformation whoever may have read it. I didn't know that it was still bugged.