[Legion - 7.2] Not's Demonology Guide

[Kncvasdlsfui]

Feels more like blizzard style bugfixing than an intentional nerf to me. It might get tweaked a bit on live.

[Drakile]

If the new 4pc lasted a bit longer and stacked I feel like it would feel a little better. That being said if the buff just gave a large amount of haste and didnt stack that would be nice as well, but the stacking would kinda feel synergistic to the 2pc of the set.

[Ilir]

do we know the actual haste amount ? it says 10 haste on mmoc but it's obviously a PH.

Cause if it's a massive amout, that could explain the 5 sec... tho I agree I'd rather have a longer duration with a lower amount or a stacking haste bonus....

Tho i'm pretty sure it's gonna change

[Werst]

Looking at how little haste is on upcoming tier and how badly the spec is addicted to it I alwonder if Demo is better off (or a wash) ignoring tier in favor of haste itemization?

Little odd best single target is conduit when it's clearly demonbolt's niche. Not like dbolt hits hard enough to do meaningful damage to a priority add...In a rational world dbolt would get a buff or even shadowbolt (thus darkglare and dbolt) we spend close to most of our time casting it for 10%'ish dmg done? That is pets outscaling weak spells and no polish. That and dark glare is almost unused though I think that is more community groupthink than balance tuning.

[Woz]

Even if it's say 10% for 5s that is still huge. That's basically a 3750 Haste proc, which say every time you got Metronome to 5 stacks EVERY time it procced 734 Haste per stack (max 5 stacks) for 12s, so 3670 Haste at 5 stacks and you either barely get to 5 stacks in the 12s or get maybe 3s of it if you do get to it.

10% Haste proc for 5s is much better than the previous tier bonus we were going to get.

[Deleted]

Where is this "new" 4p bonus? I can't find anything about it except Auto cast DE on dogs...

[TummyBoy]

I liked the old 4 piece, but if it's implemented well I think I'll like the new one even more. Demonology plays so much better with high haste, and I love just slamming out HoG after HoG during a haste trinket proc. The fast Shadow Bolts and having out 16+ Imps at a time feels very rewarding.

The nature of the spec is just going to inevitably favor high haste/rapid casting speed. At least they're playing into that and not peddling crap to us.

[Bullettime]

Looking at how little haste is on upcoming tier and how badly the spec is addicted to it I alwonder if Demo is better off (or a wash) ignoring tier in favor of haste itemization?

Little odd best single target is conduit when it's clearly demonbolt's niche. Not like dbolt hits hard enough to do meaningful damage to a priority add...In a rational world dbolt would get a buff or even shadowbolt (thus darkglare and dbolt) we spend close to most of our time casting it for 10%'ish dmg done? That is pets outscaling weak spells and no polish. That and dark glare is almost unused though I think that is more community groupthink than balance tuning.

I wouldn't say Darkglare is a community group think problem. It's more that Soul Conduit scales up because of how much we love Haste (whereas Darkglare loves Mastery) and now we're introduced to the Power Trip build that utilizes Soul Conduit. Darkglare wasn't that behind early on and was solid for multi target, especially when the talent row allowed easy usage of Hand of Doom since that whole row sucked, which isn't the case now.

Darkglare, now, is pretty decently behind the Power Trip-Soul Conduit build and needs Hand of Doom to be feasible in a multi target situation, especially if taking Impending Doom, which drops your potential lower. Darkglare by itself isn't immensely behind Soul Conduit in a vacuum, but still enough to question using it, and you compare the Darkglare "build" to others like Implosion-Soul Conduit that can AoE decently well while giving up less ST output in comparison.

edit: I'd love to see Darkglare get buffed a bit and/or Hand of Doom made base because of how it's going to continuously fall further behind while we continue to Haste stack like mad men. Demo Haste scaling is pretty out of control and doing anything other than chucking imps at people just pales.

[xuros]

I wouldn't say Darkglare is a community group think problem. It's more that Soul Conduit scales up because of how much we love Haste (whereas Darkglare loves Mastery) and now we're introduced to the Power Trip build that utilizes Soul Conduit. Darkglare wasn't that behind early on and was solid for multi target, especially when the talent row allowed easy usage of Hand of Doom since that whole row sucked, which isn't the case now.

Darkglare, now, is pretty decently behind the Power Trip-Soul Conduit build and needs Hand of Doom to be feasible in a multi target situation, especially if taking Impending Doom, which drops your potential lower. Darkglare by itself isn't immensely behind Soul Conduit in a vacuum, but still enough to question using it, and you compare the Darkglare "build" to others like Implosion-Soul Conduit that can AoE decently well while giving up less ST output in comparison.

edit: I'd love to see Darkglare get buffed a bit and/or Hand of Doom made base because of how it's going to continuously fall further behind while we continue to Haste stack like mad men. Demo Haste scaling is pretty out of control and doing anything other than chucking imps at people just pales.

Power trip/SC is totally reliant on great rng. For every great parse i see with it there are 2 to 3 bad ones. I don't see the love affair people have with that spec.

[Bullettime]

Power trip/SC is totally reliant on great rng. For every great parse i see with it there are 2 to 3 bad ones. I don't see the love affair people have with that spec.

Because even on the lower end of the rolls it's hardly worse than Demonbolt in a practical environment due to Demonbolt not hitting that hard to begin with and requiring even more turret casting, all while having a higher ceiling.

edit: Basically, the averages aren't that different, PT-SC can give higher results based on RNG, and it allow you to shoot and scoot much better since that build better utilizes SI.

[Werst]

The other less touched aspect is SI pairs very well with conduit builds in the practical world where mobility matters and takes out some RNG. Conduit builds cast DE more often so more mobility.

If you look at scale factors between a dbolt vs conduit build the dbolt has big haste scaling. Conduit has similar haste scaling but also mastery scaling almost as high as haste. Our pets scale better than our damage....as a summoner that makes sense. Just that other talents are losing their niche due to the spec not being managed relative to content and ilvl.

[Bullettime]

The other less touched aspect is SI pairs very well with conduit builds in the practical world where mobility matters and takes out some RNG. Conduit builds cast DE more often so more mobility.

If you look at scale factors between a dbolt vs conduit build the dbolt has big haste scaling. Conduit has similar haste scaling but also mastery scaling almost as high as haste. Our pets scale better than our damage....as a summoner that makes sense. Just that other talents are losing their niche due to the spec not being managed relative to content and ilvl.

Basically. As our Haste goes up, we're pumping out more demons, meaning more chances for Conduit to trigger and more value in our Mastery. Meanwhile with Demonbolt, you're hardlocked into pumping them out to get output and hard scales off Haste even more, whereas Darkglare and Conduit put more value into Mastery as well.

Conduit is just more all around good right now. The synergy it has with SI-PT is just icing on the cake.

Why I've been so concerned over this development cycle as there are some glaring issues in a lot of specs talents, Demo included, that just aren't getting touched when they're largely number issues. Darkglare and Demonbolt being effectively dead doesn't seem like something that should be intended.

[Lucrece]

Darkglare, grimoire of service, and the demon cooldowns shouldn't even cost a soul shard.

[Shandalar]

Dont forget about Shadowflame as a dead talent.

[Bullettime]

Dont forget about Shadowflame as a dead talent.

Which I've been bringing up on the official boards regularly. It just gets glossed over with everyone crying about how the sky is falling and no one really wanting to discuss anything over there.

[Medicine Man]

Dont forget about Shadowflame as a dead talent.

I posted about this recently on the Blizzard forums myself. Shadowflame could be reworked into something that would broaden our toolkit considerably with just a little bit of creativity.

[Shandalar]

I posted about this recently on the Blizzard forums myself. Shadowflame could be reworked into something that would broaden our toolkit considerably with just a little bit of creativity.

I saw it, what a pity Im from EU and cant post there. It should be an AoE talent IMHO, but Blizzard just doesnt care about demo. They would delete the spec if they could.

[Ilir]

I really hate soul conduit. I really hate not having hand of doom.

Is SC worth it with HoD ?

[Bullettime]

I really hate soul conduit. I really hate not having hand of doom.

Is SC worth it with HoD ?

You don't have to take PT with SC. It's a minor loss, sure, but it's mostly just the overall build of SI-PT-SC is performing as the best and doesn't struggle as much with movement.

[TummyBoy]

I really hate soul conduit. I really hate not having hand of doom.

Is SC worth it with HoD ?

SC and HoD don't share a tier. You're thinking of PT.

You can take HoD instead of PT. It's not a huge deal. PT is slightly better but HoD is a lot less annoying. I personally take PT for the majority of fights because I'm used to re-applying Doom at this point.