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  1. #21
    This week was crazy busy outside of raiding. I'm hoping to get some more simming done this weekend and to address some of the questions here. @Hiimdave, thanks so much for posting your APL. I'll definitely use that and see what tweaks are possible, though right now, I'm honestly doing more in MM and BM. Help with SV is extremely appreciated for people who have interest in the spec and can actually play it in raids. For my guild, we already have 8 melee, so it would be impossible for me to play the spec in a raid setting going into Legion. The best I can do is try it out in LFRs or mythic dungeons, which just isn't the same.

  2. #22
    I feel ya. Hopefully what I started can be taken and scaled into something great...I'm sure there are more SV players out there! I'll keep hashing at it as well. Once I get some free time I do plan to look into the MM and BM APL's as well and try the same methodology so I'll post those if I see any beneficial gains from my testing.

  3. #23
    Curious what your current opinion of the beta version of BM compared to live is?Particularly in the area of down time?

  4. #24
    I'd really hope that in the artifact point directions you point people towards, that you also take into consideration the time invested for one path vs another. For example, I saw in a post from a few months ago that Bullseye should be the first golden dragon that MM should go for. It was 16 points from the start. But if you spent those 16 going for, example: Legacy, you could get a different golden dragon, plus different talents and another free point since it requires only 15. Casual playing on beta, I am getting a point per day-ish. The first raid tier opening, one will probably have all three dragons opened up if a person is setting up for hard core raiding. Two at the very least.

    My point is that the Dragon talents should be the only thing one considers. I'm hoping you're doing this already. Time invested, other talents on the way to different paths, and point distribution are all rather important.

    A value placed on each rank of a talent spot, added up over a path is ideal. Not just the end selection, which is what I was seeing from a post back in Apri(?).

  5. #25
    Not that prepatch matters too much, but do those trinket sims account for the fact that kazzak items are 720 (730 upgraded) base ilvl now? That's 296 agi haste crit vers mast for the base 730 (upgraded) item. I'm not sure why this change wasn't announced anywhere, or why sites like wowhead still don't show the updated ilvl. For anyone that didn't already know this, I'd recommend coining kazzak each week even if you have the old trinket, given that you already have all the hfc gear (assuming you go through the effort to kill Kazzak).
    Last edited by Trictagon; 2016-07-29 at 07:32 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Koochulu View Post
    I'd really hope that in the artifact point directions you point people towards, that you also take into consideration the time invested for one path vs another. For example, I saw in a post from a few months ago that Bullseye should be the first golden dragon that MM should go for. It was 16 points from the start. But if you spent those 16 going for, example: Legacy, you could get a different golden dragon, plus different talents and another free point since it requires only 15. Casual playing on beta, I am getting a point per day-ish. The first raid tier opening, one will probably have all three dragons opened up if a person is setting up for hard core raiding. Two at the very least.

    My point is that the Dragon talents should be the only thing one considers. I'm hoping you're doing this already. Time invested, other talents on the way to different paths, and point distribution are all rather important.

    A value placed on each rank of a talent spot, added up over a path is ideal. Not just the end selection, which is what I was seeing from a post back in Apri(?).
    I'd like to use a metric for artifact power invested vs dps (e.g., dps / artifact power) and probably total artifact power over each path. This will get complicated to express visually for all possible AP and point investments, and it would get more complicated by the relics, which are going to be lower powered as we're leveling.

    For those curious, the average drop rate for relics in heroic dungeons was reportedly hovering between 4-10% (e.g., this guy's test), meaning you might expect 2 to 5 relics out of every 50 heroic dungeons that you do. These will be green, for the most part, and it would be nice to be able to compare them, as we do other lists of items. For now, I'm thinking these would need to be separate from the core artifact AP vs dps metric, but I think we could also use something that augments that information to let you know which relics would be the best investment. People will also want to be able to quantify dps gains for an epic relic, given their current AP and point investment. I'm thinking about that. Suggestions always welcome but I think for the relics, I may just do a breakdown of relics for fully upgraded artifacts and then try to present dps / AP as the investment metrics along artifact pathways, as well as total dps and AP investment info for key golden dragons.

    @Trictagon the trinkets were using Simcraft imports, which key off wowhead data. I need to rerun these and add Titanforge options, so keep that in mind. I haven't updated the metadata for item levels in the database source files in Simcraft Explorer, and I'm not sure I'm going to--this would be a lot of hand editing of thousands of lines in the database. So, it may report the wrong item levels for some things in the WoD-items in Simcraft Explorer outputs, but it's probably time for me to start focusing on Legion information anyway.

    @Littlebags I think for all specs, we should try to remove our bias towards our old styles of play. We've been a APM-focused class since BC where many of us can still remember binding a macro for steady shot castsequences to a mouse wheel or something. This trend of filling every single GCD with something can be hard to shake after many years. However, I think some of the new playstyles are more fun and quite frankly, rewarding, to people who understand the nuances of each spec. Sidewinders for MM is a great example of this. You have a shot that can Mark targets to increase Marked Shot damage on everything Sidewinders hits, if you have a certain proc up. So, you spend much of your time waiting for the proc and trying not to spend Sidewinders unless you are about to hit full charges (2) or you have the special proc. Then you also spend some time and thought positioning yourself for maximal Mark application on targets with the Sidewinders, so when you hit Marked Shot, you get the most of the Marked Shot usage.

    This is going to be a system that will result in significant gains for people who understand the nuances between the abilities, buffs, and target debuffs. And if you are coming to these kinds of forums and doing your research, you're going to look like a damned genius to the rest of your raid on the meters in multi-target sections of boss fights.
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-29 at 01:03 PM. Reason: spacing for mentions

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    This is going to be a system that will result in significant gains for people who understand the nuances between the abilities, buffs, and target debuffs. And if you are coming to these kinds of forums and doing your research, you're going to look like a damned genius to the rest of your raid on the meters in multi-target sections of boss fights.
    MM is literally destroying the meters for me. It clicked on day 1 and let me tell you it can be a lot of fun to play once you get the spec. I only came in 2nd or 3rd twice last night in mythic hellfire and I'm positive it was because I forgot to pool focus for a proc. Very rewarding when you do it right, very punishing when you mess up. I like that.

  8. #28
    I don't think any other trinket falls in the same situation as kazzak trinket, you literally cannot get a soul prism to drop that is below 730 (w/valor) anymore after the patch. It's not titanforged or warforged, just one trinket that got changed for no obvious reason. Kazzaks MINIMUM ilvl loot is 720 before valor now (doesn't apply to loot obtained before patch).

    I'm suggesting this might be worth adding because it's an amazing, easily obtainable base item for a lot of people, and it might be one of the best simmed trinkets for now. It also seems the large majority of people aren't even aware of this change, even the dungeon journal in-game doesn't display it. I'm not asking you to add 500 versions of each trinket or anything insane like that, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way, it's your stuff and you do what you want with it.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Trictagon View Post
    I don't think any other trinket falls in the same situation as kazzak trinket, you literally cannot get a soul prism to drop that is below 730 (w/valor) anymore after the patch. It's not titanforged or warforged, just one trinket that got changed for no obvious reason. Kazzaks MINIMUM ilvl loot is 720 before valor now (doesn't apply to loot obtained before patch).

    I'm suggesting this might be worth adding because it's an amazing, easily obtainable base item for a lot of people, and it might be one of the best simmed trinkets for now. It also seems the large majority of people aren't even aware of this change, even the dungeon journal in-game doesn't display it. I'm not asking you to add 500 versions of each trinket or anything insane like that, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way, it's your stuff and you do what you want with it.

    The chipped soul prism is in the trinket listing, but I believe only the "mythic" version is really reflecting the newer item level. So, in the trinkets listing, one of these is the current upgraded one at 730 item level, and the others are using the poorer versions from before the legion prepatch. Someone in my guild picked up a titanforged version of this, which you can see here (though the armory is still not updated to properly show it as Titanforged and instead just lists it at the 745 ilvl).

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...brodash/simple

    Unfortunately, the wowhead item entry for this is flawed in that I cannot seem to select titanforge from it to find the bonus_ids. If I knew it, I might be able to add the new "mythic" version of this trinket as well as the titanforged entry, which I know exists because someone in my guild is wearing one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A bit of an interesting result in rerunning the BM stat plot. There does appear to be a slight haste breakpoint in the graph between 2500 - 2700 haste rating. After it hits this point, it appears to lower the haste scaling by ~30% dps gain per rating invested. I'm sure it gains it again later. This is probably some DB haste breakpoint from pets. By the time you hit 110, you'll be well over this break point (and the rating involved will have changed anyway, since you have gained levels).

    (Simcraft source file)

    I'll look into that a bit more once I move on to the 110 level simming. The Simcraft source file is using my armory as base and then just replacing every item, talent, etc. I need to fix that on this machine, but it shouldn't make any difference that I use my profile as the baseline. I replace everything by the end of the source file.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am currently rerunning all talent sims. Because this HTML file generated is way too big to really host anyway, I'm just posting the top 20 or so talent combinations from sims. Here are snapshots of the BM and MM ones. I've updated the first post with "Results" next to talents in each section for quick access.

    BM (source)


    MM (source)


    SV (source)
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-30 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Updated MM with correction to WotC -> StdF

  10. #30
    What does WotC refer to in MM sims? Did you maybe mean Steady Focus (as it is in the same place as Way of the Cobra in the BM tree)?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsoni View Post
    What does WotC refer to in MM sims? Did you maybe mean Steady Focus (as it is in the same place as Way of the Cobra in the BM tree)?
    Copy and paste error. I've fixed the previous post, including the Simcraft source file for those who want to run their own, and the screenshot of the results.

  12. #32
    I am Murloc! Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabseeker View Post
    Isnt steel trap better than impr traps? Atleast on "papper" when u have all trap traits?

    Impr traps -> Explosive trap is (350%(+75%) + 350%)*1.1 for 12s cd for 5m fight = 25 traps
    Steel trap -> Steel trap is (1500%+ 500%) * 1.08 for 48s (not sure if 8% from art affect it but i think it should) = 6 traps
    without impr explosive trap is (350%(+75%) + 350%)*1.1 for 24s cd for 5m fight = 12 traps

    with 1k ap with impr trap its 213125 dmg = 710.466 dps
    while 2nd case will be 129600 + 102300 = 231900 dmg = 773 dps.
    8% more dps (if i am not wrong about something)
    Hmmm... If I read this right, you'd also be using 7 fewer GCDs to achieve that damage? 6 ST + 12 ET instead of 24 ET? Which should leave you more time for other attacks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    The chipped soul prism is in the trinket listing, but I believe only the "mythic" version is really reflecting the newer item level. So, in the trinkets listing, one of these is the current upgraded one at 730 item level, and the others are using the poorer versions from before the legion prepatch. Someone in my guild picked up a titanforged version of this, which you can see here (though the armory is still not updated to properly show it as Titanforged and instead just lists it at the 745 ilvl).

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...brodash/simple

    Unfortunately, the wowhead item entry for this is flawed in that I cannot seem to select titanforge from it to find the bonus_ids. If I knew it, I might be able to add the new "mythic" version of this trinket as well as the titanforged entry, which I know exists because someone in my guild is wearing one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A bit of an interesting result in rerunning the BM stat plot. There does appear to be a slight haste breakpoint in the graph between 2500 - 2700 haste rating. After it hits this point, it appears to lower the haste scaling by ~30% dps gain per rating invested. I'm sure it gains it again later. This is probably some DB haste breakpoint from pets. By the time you hit 110, you'll be well over this break point (and the rating involved will have changed anyway, since you have gained levels).

    "..." (Simcraft source file)

    I'll look into that a bit more once I move on to the 110 level simming. The Simcraft source file is using my armory as base and then just replacing every item, talent, etc. I need to fix that on this machine, but it shouldn't make any difference that I use my profile as the baseline. I replace everything by the end of the source file.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am currently rerunning all talent sims. Because this HTML file generated is way too big to really host anyway, I'm just posting the top 20 or so talent combinations from sims. Here are snapshots of the BM and MM ones. I've updated the first post with "Results" next to talents in each section for quick access.

    BM (source)
    "..."

    MM (source)
    "..."

    SV (source)
    "..."
    But the only build I see using Steel Traps here came out very low.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks for this thread! Good stuff, and a nice break from so much of the (less useful) forum fare.
    Last edited by Felfaadaern Darkterror; 2016-07-30 at 05:59 PM. Reason: removed images

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  13. #33
    The SV APL I was borrowed from someone else. It probably is not using Steel Traps, so that's something I should add and try again.

    P.S. When quoting my posts with the images, it's appreciated if you just replace the quoted images with "..." so others don't get annoyed at the long post quote.

    P.P.S. Rerunning SV stuff with this APL: http://pastebin.com/sVxX7ia0
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-30 at 01:52 PM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dileth View Post
    MM is literally destroying the meters for me. It clicked on day 1 and let me tell you it can be a lot of fun to play once you get the spec. I only came in 2nd or 3rd twice last night in mythic hellfire and I'm positive it was because I forgot to pool focus for a proc. Very rewarding when you do it right, very punishing when you mess up. I like that.
    no locks or mages in the raid huh

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Hmmm... If I read this right, you'd also be using 7 fewer GCDs to achieve that damage? 6 ST + 12 ET instead of 24 ET? Which should leave you more time for other attacks.
    Well as i said - "on paper", its rly strange spec to me if i get throwing axes instead of WotM i never use raptor strike but if i take it, i never us FS, with t19 2p and almost close to zero FS, this will be most useless tier bonus. Its like we have too much "fillers".

  16. #36
    It may change with artifacts as well level, but for level 100, I'm still seeing Steel Trap as slightly lower in sims.



    I'm not updating the last post, just so people can easily see the differences between the two sim runs. There's really only one thing that is pretty obvious from these sims about T60 for SV. Caltrops is a significant dps loss and should ONLY be used if you need to reduce add movement speed by 70% during a fight. The highest Caltrops dps was ~4k under the top other talent in this tier for single target.
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-30 at 03:10 PM.

  17. #37
    If SrS dmg is rly that close to DFG, prob i will dodge DFG too. Less stuff to cast on cd - better focus on mongoose rotation.

  18. #38
    I am Murloc! Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabseeker View Post
    If SrS dmg is rly that close to DFG, prob i will dodge DFG too. Less stuff to cast on cd - better focus on mongoose rotation.
    I'm all about simplifying while I learn the spec. Less is more while I focus on execution. I can add back the wrinkles one at a time.

    I'm spec'ing for a clean, easy-to-execute rotation until artifacts, theory-crafting, and individual fights make it clear what I should be using:

    Throwing Axes
    Snake Hunter
    Farstrider
    Improved Traps
    Camouflage
    Serpent Sting
    Expert Trapper

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    When quoting my posts with the images, it's appreciated if you just replace the quoted images with "..." so others don't get annoyed at the long post quote.http://pastebin.com/sVxX7ia0
    Copy - fixed.
    Last edited by Felfaadaern Darkterror; 2016-07-30 at 06:06 PM.

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  19. #39
    Some interesting results looking at the possible pathways towards filling the MM artifact:


    Simcraft: 3m fight, 10k iterations, source

    Essentially, going along the left side and getting Bullseye through Rapid Killing is significantly more dps than going along the right side to get Call of the Hunter on the way to Bullseye. There is a 6k dps difference between going after Legacy of the Windrunner in first 9 traits than Call of the Hunter. Going Call of the Hunter to Bullseye in 16 traits is roughly 14k dps less than going Legacy to Rapid Killing. Trying to fill up the bottom tiers in your first 20 traits with Legacy and Call of the Hunter is roughly 30k less than simply going for Legacy through Rapid Killing to Bullseye in your first 20 traits.

    P.S. Very possible I've messed up traits in copy-pastes from wowdb. If you see something in error, let me know. I'll try to look at the other specs soon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BM artifact trait pathways


    Simcraft: 3m fight, 10k iterations, source

    Through the first 20 traits, the best pathway appears to go through Master of Beasts along the top fork and then back around to Titan's Thunder. However, after 26 traits, the better path to filling is the other way. The reason for this is that to get all of the damage related traits from the bottom costs 27 and along the top costs 30, because you have to backtrack to get Spitting Cobras to 3. The top path is easily better for early to mythic dungeons, not only because of the early bang for the buck in single target, but also for the beast cleave improvements at Furious Swipes. Consequently, top path seems the way to go for BM.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have to rerun the talent sims for SV. There is something definitely wrong due to a Find-Replace/Copy-Paste error. In the previous results posted, some of the talent sims were accidentally testing DFG in place of SrS. Running the sim again now with the corrections. Need to rerun MM as well, since most of the Volley profiles were actually using Barrage. Will be a couple of hours before they're done.
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-30 at 08:39 PM.

  20. #40
    lol 30k DPS difference between MM and BM? its a huge difference

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